tencrush: (jackanto subtext)
tencrush ([personal profile] tencrush) wrote2008-07-17 05:53 pm

In which I tl;dr about Torchwood again. About bloody time, too.

So... it transpires that James Moran wrote the BBCA Captain's Blogs. Interesting. And when I say "interesting", I mean, of course, "weird". I have in the past accused the blogs of having been written by a gushing demented 15-year-old fangirl. So, either James Moran is secretly a gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl, or James Moran has cynically pandered to the gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl in all of us. I mean, it's either one or the other, right? I WISH I COULD TALK TO JAMES MORAN RIGHT NOW, SERIOUSLY.

My problem with the Captain's Blogs, which I've expressed on numerous occasions, is the way they are in many instances, completely at odds with what we've been shown on screen when it comes to the Jack/Ianto relationship. And on one level, it's kind of heartening to know that they're the product of the production team, because it means that all that shizzle that we've been talking about all these months, all those interpretations (because that's what they are, let's face it) we have of there being more to Jack/Ianto than handjobs in the hub, there being more depth to it than the shallow sexxings and innuendo we've been unambiguously shown, are supported by at least some sort of opinion by someone on the team somewhere, that yes, there is more to this relationship that the stuff they've chosen to show. It shows promise for the future, right? But, then again, there's the cynical aspect of the whole thing, that aspect that has got up a few people's noses. I guess the question really is, WERE THEY PANDERING TO US?

Well, there's a few possibilities, the first, of course being that James Moran just ships Jack and Ianto. James Moran, personally, is a fan of the relationship and wants to see it played out in the way the blogs play it out. Now, that possibility is all well and good, but if that's the case then it brings me back to the point I have made countless times before about Torchwood, which is that there is no-one in charge. Nobody is taking it upon themselves to make sure all the writers are on the same page when it comes to the interpersonal relationships on the show and it makes for a mess in the area of character continuity. It just doesn't work to let one writer play up Jack/Gwen, and the next Jack/Ianto completely randomly, because all it serves to do at the end of the day is make everybody look bad. Gwen looks like an insensitive slut, Jack looks like a fickle spacewhore and Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you). So, yeah, if James ships Jack/Ianto, good for him, a lot of us do, and if that's all it is, then that's fine, but somebody, somewhere, please bear in mind that evidently not all the writers do. And that's hella confusing for those of us watching.

Now the second, and I would hope more plausible, possibility is that James Moran was writing to some sort of brief from up above. But that brings a whole different can of worms to the table and they're just as unpleasant as the other worms (the other worms, up there, which I hadn't yet mentioned, but let's just assume there was a metaphor about worms involved somehow in the first possibility and move along, yeah?) Because that implies first of all that the powers that be were all too aware that they were showing the Jack/Ianto relationship, on screen, in a rather superficial light, because let's face it, of all the interactions we could have been shown between Jack and Ianto, we all agree that perhaps one or two sexual innuendoes should have been dropped in favour of even the vaguest hint that these two have some sort of emotional connection along the lines of the one the blog seems to be telling us they have. Now this brings up an interesting question, which is, when exactly were these blogs written? Because it could quite easily be the case that the blogs were written at a very late date, at a time when negative fan reaction was already starting to filter through, or at least at a time when positive reaction and the popularity of the Jack/Ianto relationship were becoming more clear to the production team, more clear, at least, than at the scripting and shooting stages of season 2. So was James Moran briefed to play catch-up in what the production team realised was a rather too ambiguous portrayal of a relationship the fanbase was rallying around? It's possible. And if so, yeah, you could call that pandering, but at least it's not cynical pandering, right? It's the kind of pandering that makes us fans feel kind of smug and good about ourselves because it tells us that someone's listening. And that promises great things for the future. Cool.

The other possibility though, the other worm in the can, if you will, is that Moran was briefed to add this layer to the relationship purely because the powers that be had no intention of going into it on screen. Now that's cynical pandering. That's the having your cake and eating it scenario and it's the one most people fear is the case. And that fear is reasonably justified, I feel. I mean, here's a team of writers and producers and whatnot who are perfectly happy to take Jack out of Torchwood, plonk him back into Who, rewind his character by a couple of years and turn him back into an omnisexual spaceslut who'll come onto anything with a pulse, despite having had him develop on Torchwood for two years into a man who seems, from what we can gather from the text, reasonably romantic, more than capable of monogamy and a person who places a huge emphasis on protecting those he loves. Not the kind of guy who just leaves you in the Hub with a bunch of Daleks, because hey, you guys can take care of yourselves, right? I'm taking the big gun, smoke me a kipper, helloooo there Sarah Jane. That sort of thing. These are the people we're dealing with here. The people who didn't bat an eyelid when the script said Owen, the guy who's been a doctor for at least five years that we know of, was 27 years old. The sort of people who from our fannish perspective, just don't seem to think twice about the bigger picture they're painting. Or at least once more (bonus points for the reference, peeps, just seeing if you're still paying attention, I realise this is all getting a bit tl;dr.) I hate to break it to the powers that be, but this last scenario is one that a lot of people wouldn't put past you in the slightest. I'm just sayin', you know?

What do I think? I think it's a little bit from columns A, B and C. I think the big problem Torchwood suffers from, and it's one I've had a bit of time to think about, is that they just don't quite know where they want to go with Jack. He was an omnisexual whore, but they've realised that that's just a bit too much of a whoreish thing for the romantic lead of a show to be(especially one that you've touted as such a sexually liberated icon, it gives the impression that sexual liberation=sluttiness and that looks bad and isn't what they meant). But giving him a romantic relationship that's anything more than casual kind of takes away his appeal as a 51st century happy-go-lucky player type, and it bogs him down as a character with nowhere to go. In making Jack our hero, they're kind of stuck now between a rock and a hard place. I sympathise, and I think it's a hard dilemma to resolve. What I do know, though, is that trying to approach him, and his relationship with Ianto, from all angles at once, trying to cover all the bases and please everyone, isn't the solution, and that's an approach a lot of people thought the Captain's Blogs were symptomatic of. I wasn't convinced that Rusty and co. were in the business of trying to please everyone, but, having seen Rose and Handy snog in the sunset in Journey's End, I'm no longer so sure about that one. There's having a cake, there's eating it, and then there's eating every pastry based snack in the whole damned shop.

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 04:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Excellent essayette (if it wasn't a word before it is now).

'...there is no-one in charge. Nobody...'
Oh absolutely. It seems like some writers want Jack/Ianto and others want Jack/Gwen. I seem to remember the writer of Meat saying that she saw Jack and Gwen as an unrequited love story.

'I wasn't convinced that Rusty and co. were in the business of trying to please everyone, but, having seen Rose and Handy snog in the sunset in Journey's End, I'm no longer so sure about that one.'
Yeah, it really seems like they want to please everyone, and when that happens nobody is pleased. I really wouldn't put it past them.

[identity profile] melody2tds.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 04:57 pm (UTC)(link)
See, I don't think that writer would be at all off base calling Jack/Gwen an unrequited love story. Although, I'd probably describe it more like mutual unfulfilled crushing. That wouldn't sound as romantic to a writer, though.
It's not like that interp takes anything away from Jack/Ianto, either.
There's more than enough evidence that Jack and Gwen had feelings for each other, but it's obvious than neither was ever in a position to act on the feelings. Both emotionally, and due to previous experiences/committments.
I still love my ex, who now has a wife and three year old, and he loves me right back. That doesn't mean either of us wants to get back together. It just means that loving someone doesn't always go away completely, even when you've moved on in life.
Jack and Gwen can both legitimately love Ianto and Rhys respectively, without the fact that they were attracted to each other having any bearing.
I still get the impression watching Something Borrowed that we were meant to understand that they were both letting go of the attraction. The rest of the season even bore out that impression in their interactions. It was that point in a friendship-that-could-have-been-more where you decide not to pursue it for whatever reason, and start letting the feelings you have morph into something else. In this case, a more familial-style affection.

So, yeah. semi-OT to tencrush's point, but it's how I saw the whole Ianto/Jack/Gwen/Rhys love-square thingy resolving over the course of the season. I think they did intend to be ambiguous to a certain extent, but it resolved a little too neatly by the end to have been completely accidental.

I think the writers had to deal with the fact that in the first season their originally intended main ship got hijacked, and sent careening off in another direction. I don't think they did that bad of a job, either. I still maintain that the major issue is more to do with the akward romantic chemistry between Eve and John than the actual writing.

[identity profile] melody2tds.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 05:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I call Fragments-style retcon on the blogs. They were written for BBCAm something like a year after the first season aired in the UK, right? So, I'm guessing that part of the point was to make the Jack/Ianto relationship have more context than the tiny amount of screen time it got, since they'd decided to follow through with it in the second season. Then the blogs for the second season just continued the trend of giving light background, and filling in the bits we didn't get to see.

So, I do think it was deliberate, but not in a pandering way. It's just meant to be supplemental for those who choose to follow along.

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 05:21 pm (UTC)(link)
'I don't think that writer would be at all off base calling Jack/Gwen an unrequited love story. '
I guess I should have been clearer; it could be/is an unrequited love story, but it seems to me that not all the writers see it that way. I'll have to watch the episodes again when my DVDs get here.

'In this case, a more familial-style affection.'
Yeah, in Something Barrowed I really got the impression that Jack had the father of the bride role and Ianto had the mother of the bride role (Ianto did pick out her wedding dress).

'I still maintain that the major issue is more to do with the akward romantic chemistry between Eve and John than the actual writing.'
Oh yes, they have nice platonic chemistry, but the romantic chemistry does seem awkward.

I think James IS a Janto shipper....

(Anonymous) 2008-07-17 06:15 pm (UTC)(link)
...there's a bit in his blog where he discusses the TW finale, and how he gets to pump "the thing that Captain Jack pumped"....and "I pumped it good". Sounds like he's got a crush.

Maybe he just finds Janto hot?

[identity profile] lemiserabelle.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 06:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I think you've hit all of the nails on their respective heads. You've built yourself a house, or rather, a ship.

I agree with everything you've said, and I must say that it's refreshing to know that someone else is thinking about this from a critical standpoint, rather than just a fannish one. Jack/Ianto is my OTP, but I don't want it at the expense of continuity and character development. I wish the writers and producers could read this, but I've a feeling that Davies is too stuck on himself to care.

The only character they seem interested in really developing is Gwen, and even her scenes are very one-dimensional. I rewatched Sleeper the other day and found myself wishing that Moran (and the whole crew) had written fewer repetitive "GWEN CARES A LOT" scenes. If they'd cut just a few of those, they would have time to use the other characters, particularly Tosh and Ianto. Like Beth's husband, Tosh found out that someone she cared about was going to betray her, and the combination of kind-human/destructive-alien reminds me of Lisa. I would like to see how Ianto felt about the Beth situation, and how his views have changed since he acknowledged that Lisa couldn't be saved.

There is so, so much potential in this show. If Torchwood had a more talented team of writers, it could be brilliant.

Confession: I like most of the fanfic better than cannon. And a significant portion of it is of higher quality than the episodes themselves. *ducks rocks*

[identity profile] jbs-teeth.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 06:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Yep; you see, this is exactly why I've always been very happy to let everyone in the fandom make their own interpretation of what's going on in Jantoland, and why I get more than a little irritated with the folks who INSIST their opinion is "right." There is no "right," because there is no answer. Previously, I would have said that only because it was his show, RTD could definitively say something one way or the other, and I'd have believed him. But now, with his departure, there is no authority. Moffat can assert himself by insisting on a show bible and a multi-season arc, but as of the moment, there is no fact, only interpretation.

And yes, they have written themselves into a corner with Jack, but judging from every other episode of Who and TW, no one's concerned with logic anyway. So just pick a starting point, for gods sake, and let him grow.

Basically, they need to stop being a bunch of pussies about everything. Don't make a popular show, make a good fucking show, and commit to your POV.

[identity profile] jbs-teeth.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 06:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Nope, I totally agree with you and thought the exact same thing myself. I'd rather read a new sam_storyteller story or a new installment from invisible_lift than see a new episode. I'm not actually exaggerating about that.

Of course, as demotu has pointed out on numerous occassions, the fanfic probably wouldn't be so good and so interesting without so many holes to try to fill with logic and emotional growth. So, if the writers got better, I bet the fic would get worse.

[identity profile] solitary-summer.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 06:42 pm (UTC)(link)
As for talking to him, you could always try commenting on his blog... He replied twice when I asked (critical) questions after Sleeper, which mostly is the reason why I haven't commented about the Captain's Blog (although I am kind of tempted), I feel I've made myself obnoxious enough already...

[identity profile] cen-evans.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 06:48 pm (UTC)(link)
First off, very good essayette. Definitely need to make that an official word. *g*

I've met James Moran at a convention, and may I say, he is not only talented but very brave. He sat at a table full of teenage fangirls (most cosplaying) and devoted most of his saturday night to listening to us babble and read from John Barrowman's autobiography. I know I might have mentioned that a lot of people ship Jack/Ianto. Several times.

So yeah, I agree with melody2tds, the Jack/Ianto in the blogs was deliberate, but it's the direction they decided to take the season in. Hopefully they keep taking it in that direction!

[identity profile] kaimu.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 06:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, James Moran has admitted to lurking in OG, and following fan-blogs, also a lot of questions fans had about plot holes (what was Jack doing between leaving in LotTL and appearing in KKBB?) so a little bit of non-cynical pandering is obviously going on. Along with the ‘fell behind on the archive notes as a response to people wondering why the blog hadn’t been updated’.
I tend to think the writers were very excited about Jack/Gwen at the start, and really wanted to build towards it and Ianto was just to remind the viewers that Jack’s attracted to men as well. Problem was there was wonky romantic chemistry between Eve and John, and Kai and Gareth proved to be better actors and they wanted to keep them on.
So since the Captain’s Blogs were for BBCA, they decided to use those to supplement the Jack/Ianto relationship, and build it up in preparation for series 2 and later, but they still wanted to finish up the Jack/Gwen story-line they had originally invested themselves in. So hence the weird love polygon.

[identity profile] tigercheetah.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 07:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I found the blogs quite sickening when compared to what we saw in the actual show. They're just not on the same wave-length at all.

I still stand by the fact that the biggest problem with the Jack/Ianto relationship is that Jack and Ianto themselves are not on an equal footing. Not only do the writers give Jack a relationship with Ianto, they also continue to give him sexual tension with other characters, most notibly Gwen and Captain John. Jack also continues to have a strong attachment to the Doctor.

Ianto's stuck with only Jack, which of course is going to make it seem like Ianto has a greater investment in their relationship than Jack does.

I still hold the view that, unless their relationship is actually going to go somewhere in S3, I'd rather see it droped all together. At least this way, the writers will have to give Ianto some storylines that have nothing to do with his half-hearted relationship with Jack.

[identity profile] antelope-writes.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 07:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I think part of the problem is that in S1 they had a good bit of character development going on, and then in S2 they decided it was too dark, retconned the hell out of the whole thing, and didn't bother to stop and think about what they did next. Owen as 27 at death was part of that, but the implication from Fragments that Toshiko was at most 27-28? Please.

They don't need something written in stone--that would have nixed Janto from the word go, despite the onscreen clickage between JB and GDL or EM and KO--but they do need a rough draft form AND a good proofreader AND somebody to tell them where to go when things get too weird.

[identity profile] kaimu.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Personally I tend to think the writers rushed too much on trying to establish Jack and romantic relationships with Ianto, Gwen, and even John.

By giving him 3 ongoing love interests they limited the stories they could tell. They can't do anything like CJH, or even his relationship with Estelle in Small Worlds, without making him seem like an insensitive opportunistic bastard.

If they wanted to do a one-episode romance, or even a 5-episode story arc with romance, their future choices are very limited.

[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 07:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Wordy McWorderson. Especially on the whole absence of bible/godlike showrunner/decree from on high that THIS is how we're playing it. It lends the whole show an air of amateurism that it doesn't deserve (and can't afford, given the fact that we have uneven tone and genre shifts to deal with amidst the lack of consistent characterisation). And ffs, guys, you're doing the out gay couple in canon thing? Don't fuck that up, k? Because that's a big deal, and either you go for it or you don't, but it's probably the one and only plotline you shouldn't get coy or ambiguous or 'we don't want to confuse the casual viewer' about, because it has wider impact than that. You can have a Gay Agenda. You can be proud of it. But you don't get to be proud of it if you want to also pretend it's not there half the time.

The meandering representation of Jack really reminds me of Obi-Wan in the Star Wars prequels. One minute he's 'wahey, I'm Ewan McGregor, international spacewhore: check out my lightwang, bitches!' and the next he's the beardy sensible bore who's seen too much to muck about with the chilluns. I get that it's a challenge, bouncing him between the shows, keeping him from becoming static, avoiding losing everything we ever liked about him in the first place (which is the area I think they tried to remedy most obviously in S2, but which is hard if they also want him to be in a relationship...) - but really, if it's getting reminiscent of George Lucas, something is deeply wonky.

(Anonymous) 2008-07-17 07:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that the blogs aren't all that inconsistent! After all they are just light banter. There is no I wuv you, or any other declarations. To suggest Ianto handcuffs Jack is hardly the most romantic thing. I have always enjoyed them as a lighthearted little filler. I really don't think they are meant to be any more than that.

I always enjoy your views, but I just don't think these blogs are very serious. I can see that those obsessed with Gwen/Jack may get upset, because the one thing I think they say, is that Jack/Ianto is played out off screen. To me RTD's writing in DW this season said exactly the same thing.

I also think it would have been awful to have Jack shag a different character every week, it would have been James T Kirk only worse, as that was the 60's when it was a new idea, now he would just seem like a sleazy git. They clearly knew that, and I think have come up with a nice way of dealing with it.

I'm pretty sure that you are British? It just seems to me that British crime/sci fi drama often deals with relationships like this. Even characters that are married etc, in crime dramas it is mostly a background thing, and not really ever given much time. Only soaps go into depth with relationships. I don't really think there has ever been that much Jack/Gwen, it can be read in so many ways, father/daughter, friendship, or crush. Certainly the irritating googly eyes seemed to stop altogether after the wedding, and were totally absent from DW.

[identity profile] karaokegal.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 08:01 pm (UTC)(link)
As a vocal and avid anti-J/I shipper, my most fervid prayer is for pandering, especially regarding the horror of the post "Adrift" blog. I still find it nauseating and I would hope the fanbase would be offended as well. Is that really who you think Jack is? Is that really the relationship between J/I that you want? (Was that the Jack you saw as soon as the Doctor was anywhere to be heard or seen?)

I know I'm risking wankery by even commenting on this, but you and I have been through these issues before and even though we pretty vociferously disagree about much of, I feel we can have a sort of reasonable discussion.

So, yeah, if James ships Jack/Ianto, good for him, most of us do

Define most and define us? Yes in certain places, not so much in others. This is an opposing view-point and we are not as
marginal as some of the comms make us look .




[identity profile] karaokegal.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 08:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Manipulative certainly fits the Jack we were originally sold and while I'd take issue with "dickhead," I'd have no problem with an omni-sexual, actively poly-amorous, flawed human being as the hero of my show.

I'll reiterate that my ships are Jack/Doctor, Jack/Owen, Jack/Anybody but Ianto, and J/I/G. However, if it's pure choice between J/I and J/G, which is some of the fandom feels obliged to frame it, then give me J/G.

(Anonymous) 2008-07-17 08:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually I think Jack is very clingy! Look at the way he was toward Owen, and the way he is in the stolen earth. I don't think that is inconsistant at all, but as I said, they just don't play that stuff out on screen. And yes i think they could a bit more.

I was out with some Welsh friends on Saturday and we were talking about TW. They are what I imagine most viewers to be, they quite enjoy it, but don't really take that much notice of any details at all. They only started watching to check out the locations, and enjoy enough to watch regularly. They were talking about how much they like Gwen, (they couldn't remember her name) that she is with a normal Welsh bloke, even though she wants to shag Capt Jack, then they said "and what's his name, Jack's boyfriend, the one with the suits?" We continued talking and they were laughing about weevils in Abergavveny as they both live that way and work in Cardiff. It occured to me though that they have pretty much judged the relationships the way they are intended, while only watching very superficially, not even remembering any names apart from Jack!!

I am very glad there was no bible, they have had the freedom to develop on screen chemistry, and let characters flourish. I have given up on US shows before, they can be so overwritten. And force actors with no chemistry at all into romantic pairings.

[identity profile] tearful-eye.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
(totally agreeing with everything you've said!)

[identity profile] pontisbright.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 08:54 pm (UTC)(link)
The daft thing is that I don't have any fannish investment whatsoever in Jack/Ianto. I don't have a character- or ship-based agenda: if they wrote Jack/Gwen or Jack/furniture or Jack/new person every week instead I'd be more than happy - if they did it with any hint of consistency or that they'd communicated a plan for the season amongst themselves. But having gone down the Jack/Ianto road, they are making a spectacular pig's ear of it.

It's weird: usually I like ambiguous uncomfortable half-spoken relationships that can be interpreted by the audience in different ways. But there's something about onscreen J/I that seems to be doing that by accident. This is Torchwood, the most literal show in history, where alien sex gas IS alien sex gas. It spells everything else out. It fudges them. It's odd.

Is it that it's Ianto, Massively Underwritten Character (apart from his dead robot girlfriend which makes his backstory hella confusing esp in the light of Fragments) and Jack, Massively Overwritten Character (who has been and done everything to the point where he's indistinguishable from anyone else), and there just isn't any way of making that work without it being OOC half the time anyway? I'm not sure how they can fix that, really.

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