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In which I tl;dr about Torchwood again. About bloody time, too.
So... it transpires that James Moran wrote the BBCA Captain's Blogs. Interesting. And when I say "interesting", I mean, of course, "weird". I have in the past accused the blogs of having been written by a gushing demented 15-year-old fangirl. So, either James Moran is secretly a gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl, or James Moran has cynically pandered to the gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl in all of us. I mean, it's either one or the other, right? I WISH I COULD TALK TO JAMES MORAN RIGHT NOW, SERIOUSLY.
My problem with the Captain's Blogs, which I've expressed on numerous occasions, is the way they are in many instances, completely at odds with what we've been shown on screen when it comes to the Jack/Ianto relationship. And on one level, it's kind of heartening to know that they're the product of the production team, because it means that all that shizzle that we've been talking about all these months, all those interpretations (because that's what they are, let's face it) we have of there being more to Jack/Ianto than handjobs in the hub, there being more depth to it than the shallow sexxings and innuendo we've been unambiguously shown, are supported by at least some sort of opinion by someone on the team somewhere, that yes, there is more to this relationship that the stuff they've chosen to show. It shows promise for the future, right? But, then again, there's the cynical aspect of the whole thing, that aspect that has got up a few people's noses. I guess the question really is, WERE THEY PANDERING TO US?
Well, there's a few possibilities, the first, of course being that James Moran just ships Jack and Ianto. James Moran, personally, is a fan of the relationship and wants to see it played out in the way the blogs play it out. Now, that possibility is all well and good, but if that's the case then it brings me back to the point I have made countless times before about Torchwood, which is that there is no-one in charge. Nobody is taking it upon themselves to make sure all the writers are on the same page when it comes to the interpersonal relationships on the show and it makes for a mess in the area of character continuity. It just doesn't work to let one writer play up Jack/Gwen, and the next Jack/Ianto completely randomly, because all it serves to do at the end of the day is make everybody look bad. Gwen looks like an insensitive slut, Jack looks like a fickle spacewhore and Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you). So, yeah, if James ships Jack/Ianto, good for him, a lot of us do, and if that's all it is, then that's fine, but somebody, somewhere, please bear in mind that evidently not all the writers do. And that's hella confusing for those of us watching.
Now the second, and I would hope more plausible, possibility is that James Moran was writing to some sort of brief from up above. But that brings a whole different can of worms to the table and they're just as unpleasant as the other worms (the other worms, up there, which I hadn't yet mentioned, but let's just assume there was a metaphor about worms involved somehow in the first possibility and move along, yeah?) Because that implies first of all that the powers that be were all too aware that they were showing the Jack/Ianto relationship, on screen, in a rather superficial light, because let's face it, of all the interactions we could have been shown between Jack and Ianto, we all agree that perhaps one or two sexual innuendoes should have been dropped in favour of even the vaguest hint that these two have some sort of emotional connection along the lines of the one the blog seems to be telling us they have. Now this brings up an interesting question, which is, when exactly were these blogs written? Because it could quite easily be the case that the blogs were written at a very late date, at a time when negative fan reaction was already starting to filter through, or at least at a time when positive reaction and the popularity of the Jack/Ianto relationship were becoming more clear to the production team, more clear, at least, than at the scripting and shooting stages of season 2. So was James Moran briefed to play catch-up in what the production team realised was a rather too ambiguous portrayal of a relationship the fanbase was rallying around? It's possible. And if so, yeah, you could call that pandering, but at least it's not cynical pandering, right? It's the kind of pandering that makes us fans feel kind of smug and good about ourselves because it tells us that someone's listening. And that promises great things for the future. Cool.
The other possibility though, the other worm in the can, if you will, is that Moran was briefed to add this layer to the relationship purely because the powers that be had no intention of going into it on screen. Now that's cynical pandering. That's the having your cake and eating it scenario and it's the one most people fear is the case. And that fear is reasonably justified, I feel. I mean, here's a team of writers and producers and whatnot who are perfectly happy to take Jack out of Torchwood, plonk him back into Who, rewind his character by a couple of years and turn him back into an omnisexual spaceslut who'll come onto anything with a pulse, despite having had him develop on Torchwood for two years into a man who seems, from what we can gather from the text, reasonably romantic, more than capable of monogamy and a person who places a huge emphasis on protecting those he loves. Not the kind of guy who just leaves you in the Hub with a bunch of Daleks, because hey, you guys can take care of yourselves, right? I'm taking the big gun, smoke me a kipper, helloooo there Sarah Jane. That sort of thing. These are the people we're dealing with here. The people who didn't bat an eyelid when the script said Owen, the guy who's been a doctor for at least five years that we know of, was 27 years old. The sort of people who from our fannish perspective, just don't seem to think twice about the bigger picture they're painting. Or at least once more (bonus points for the reference, peeps, just seeing if you're still paying attention, I realise this is all getting a bit tl;dr.) I hate to break it to the powers that be, but this last scenario is one that a lot of people wouldn't put past you in the slightest. I'm just sayin', you know?
What do I think? I think it's a little bit from columns A, B and C. I think the big problem Torchwood suffers from, and it's one I've had a bit of time to think about, is that they just don't quite know where they want to go with Jack. He was an omnisexual whore, but they've realised that that's just a bit too much of a whoreish thing for the romantic lead of a show to be(especially one that you've touted as such a sexually liberated icon, it gives the impression that sexual liberation=sluttiness and that looks bad and isn't what they meant). But giving him a romantic relationship that's anything more than casual kind of takes away his appeal as a 51st century happy-go-lucky player type, and it bogs him down as a character with nowhere to go. In making Jack our hero, they're kind of stuck now between a rock and a hard place. I sympathise, and I think it's a hard dilemma to resolve. What I do know, though, is that trying to approach him, and his relationship with Ianto, from all angles at once, trying to cover all the bases and please everyone, isn't the solution, and that's an approach a lot of people thought the Captain's Blogs were symptomatic of. I wasn't convinced that Rusty and co. were in the business of trying to please everyone, but, having seen Rose and Handy snog in the sunset in Journey's End, I'm no longer so sure about that one. There's having a cake, there's eating it, and then there's eating every pastry based snack in the whole damned shop.
My problem with the Captain's Blogs, which I've expressed on numerous occasions, is the way they are in many instances, completely at odds with what we've been shown on screen when it comes to the Jack/Ianto relationship. And on one level, it's kind of heartening to know that they're the product of the production team, because it means that all that shizzle that we've been talking about all these months, all those interpretations (because that's what they are, let's face it) we have of there being more to Jack/Ianto than handjobs in the hub, there being more depth to it than the shallow sexxings and innuendo we've been unambiguously shown, are supported by at least some sort of opinion by someone on the team somewhere, that yes, there is more to this relationship that the stuff they've chosen to show. It shows promise for the future, right? But, then again, there's the cynical aspect of the whole thing, that aspect that has got up a few people's noses. I guess the question really is, WERE THEY PANDERING TO US?
Well, there's a few possibilities, the first, of course being that James Moran just ships Jack and Ianto. James Moran, personally, is a fan of the relationship and wants to see it played out in the way the blogs play it out. Now, that possibility is all well and good, but if that's the case then it brings me back to the point I have made countless times before about Torchwood, which is that there is no-one in charge. Nobody is taking it upon themselves to make sure all the writers are on the same page when it comes to the interpersonal relationships on the show and it makes for a mess in the area of character continuity. It just doesn't work to let one writer play up Jack/Gwen, and the next Jack/Ianto completely randomly, because all it serves to do at the end of the day is make everybody look bad. Gwen looks like an insensitive slut, Jack looks like a fickle spacewhore and Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you). So, yeah, if James ships Jack/Ianto, good for him, a lot of us do, and if that's all it is, then that's fine, but somebody, somewhere, please bear in mind that evidently not all the writers do. And that's hella confusing for those of us watching.
Now the second, and I would hope more plausible, possibility is that James Moran was writing to some sort of brief from up above. But that brings a whole different can of worms to the table and they're just as unpleasant as the other worms (the other worms, up there, which I hadn't yet mentioned, but let's just assume there was a metaphor about worms involved somehow in the first possibility and move along, yeah?) Because that implies first of all that the powers that be were all too aware that they were showing the Jack/Ianto relationship, on screen, in a rather superficial light, because let's face it, of all the interactions we could have been shown between Jack and Ianto, we all agree that perhaps one or two sexual innuendoes should have been dropped in favour of even the vaguest hint that these two have some sort of emotional connection along the lines of the one the blog seems to be telling us they have. Now this brings up an interesting question, which is, when exactly were these blogs written? Because it could quite easily be the case that the blogs were written at a very late date, at a time when negative fan reaction was already starting to filter through, or at least at a time when positive reaction and the popularity of the Jack/Ianto relationship were becoming more clear to the production team, more clear, at least, than at the scripting and shooting stages of season 2. So was James Moran briefed to play catch-up in what the production team realised was a rather too ambiguous portrayal of a relationship the fanbase was rallying around? It's possible. And if so, yeah, you could call that pandering, but at least it's not cynical pandering, right? It's the kind of pandering that makes us fans feel kind of smug and good about ourselves because it tells us that someone's listening. And that promises great things for the future. Cool.
The other possibility though, the other worm in the can, if you will, is that Moran was briefed to add this layer to the relationship purely because the powers that be had no intention of going into it on screen. Now that's cynical pandering. That's the having your cake and eating it scenario and it's the one most people fear is the case. And that fear is reasonably justified, I feel. I mean, here's a team of writers and producers and whatnot who are perfectly happy to take Jack out of Torchwood, plonk him back into Who, rewind his character by a couple of years and turn him back into an omnisexual spaceslut who'll come onto anything with a pulse, despite having had him develop on Torchwood for two years into a man who seems, from what we can gather from the text, reasonably romantic, more than capable of monogamy and a person who places a huge emphasis on protecting those he loves. Not the kind of guy who just leaves you in the Hub with a bunch of Daleks, because hey, you guys can take care of yourselves, right? I'm taking the big gun, smoke me a kipper, helloooo there Sarah Jane. That sort of thing. These are the people we're dealing with here. The people who didn't bat an eyelid when the script said Owen, the guy who's been a doctor for at least five years that we know of, was 27 years old. The sort of people who from our fannish perspective, just don't seem to think twice about the bigger picture they're painting. Or at least once more (bonus points for the reference, peeps, just seeing if you're still paying attention, I realise this is all getting a bit tl;dr.) I hate to break it to the powers that be, but this last scenario is one that a lot of people wouldn't put past you in the slightest. I'm just sayin', you know?
What do I think? I think it's a little bit from columns A, B and C. I think the big problem Torchwood suffers from, and it's one I've had a bit of time to think about, is that they just don't quite know where they want to go with Jack. He was an omnisexual whore, but they've realised that that's just a bit too much of a whoreish thing for the romantic lead of a show to be(especially one that you've touted as such a sexually liberated icon, it gives the impression that sexual liberation=sluttiness and that looks bad and isn't what they meant). But giving him a romantic relationship that's anything more than casual kind of takes away his appeal as a 51st century happy-go-lucky player type, and it bogs him down as a character with nowhere to go. In making Jack our hero, they're kind of stuck now between a rock and a hard place. I sympathise, and I think it's a hard dilemma to resolve. What I do know, though, is that trying to approach him, and his relationship with Ianto, from all angles at once, trying to cover all the bases and please everyone, isn't the solution, and that's an approach a lot of people thought the Captain's Blogs were symptomatic of. I wasn't convinced that Rusty and co. were in the business of trying to please everyone, but, having seen Rose and Handy snog in the sunset in Journey's End, I'm no longer so sure about that one. There's having a cake, there's eating it, and then there's eating every pastry based snack in the whole damned shop.
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I'll reiterate that my ships are Jack/Doctor, Jack/Owen, Jack/Anybody but Ianto, and J/I/G. However, if it's pure choice between J/I and J/G, which is some of the fandom feels obliged to frame it, then give me J/G.
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IF the J/I shippers would accept a Jack who is still omni-sexual and poly-amorous, I'd be fine, and I'm not saying some of them won't, but a lot of them are rabid on the topic to the level of heterophobia, especially regarding even the possibility of Jack/Gwen.
Obviously J/I sex is canon. Fine. But anyone who tries to sell it to me as schmoopy-oopy twoo-wuv, even if that someone is James Moran, is asking for a big nasty fight, culminating for the time being with my shouting THREESOME, THREESOME,THREESOME.
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IF the J/I shippers would accept a Jack who is still omni-sexual and poly-amorous, I'd be fine
I really wish they'd have gone with this. It would have been better for everyone involved if Jack was still omnisexual and poly and Ianto was fine with that, the whole dynamic would be so much better and there wouldn't be any need for this weird pastede on Blog romance.
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After all Ianto went through, seeing over 90% of his colleagues die, seeing his girlfriend killed in front of him, being captured, beaten and almost killed by cannibals, I don't understand how anybody can take issue with his so called whining. For goodness sakes, he's only 25 and already he's had to deal with more shit than most people do in a lifetime. The fact that he's not huddled screaming in a corner is a testament to his strength, and I certainly think he's entitled to be still grieving (not whining) in Greeks bearing gifts and through much of S1.
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Heh, I was actually in both camps during Cyberwoman, torn between wanting to hug him and wanting to shake some sense into him. It wasn't until Countrycide that I got the 'happy in my pants' vibe. (there's something about a 'scared hero who rises to the occasion' that really gets me in a good way)
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Although Gwen is still an iritating Rose knock-off, regardless of how people feel about Ianto. :)
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Then there's just no point in having the discussion because it will come down to visceral attraction or hatred and logic can play not part.
God that's sad. :(
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LJ comment threads, not the best places to express subtlety of meaning.
Glad to hear there's hope for continued rational dialogue.
Because seriously-GDL, standing, kneeling, sitting, etc, does so much nothing for me, I can't even begin to express it.
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Assuming that Ianto really knows everything, then he knows about Owen's fiancee, as well as Diane, which makes his self-righteous prickishness in CJH even more annoying.
Just not buying it. Yes, he's been through shit. They all have. They react in their own ways, and his is WHINING, but his is not worse than anybody else and it doesn't justify said whining. Give me Owen's alcoholic womanizing any day!
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I appreciate your opinion, you know that, but I really don't see this. Can you give me at least an example of the whining and apparent limpet-ness you're referring to?
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Which is why, even thought I hope and pray that "threeseome," really means "threesome," I just can't imagine Ianto given up what he perceives as sole possession of Jack's body and soul very easily.
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But hey, we all see things differently. And like I said, I don't actively ship them, I have no emotional investment in how this relationship plays out, I just want a satisfactory story, now that they've chosen to make it canon I want it to play out in a way that isn't detrimental to either character. And the easiest way to have done that to start with would have been to make Jack polyamorous and Ianto fully aware of and okay with that. It's a shame they didn't go with that.
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when he really needs that sort of reassurance from Jack, he quite simply calls him out on it.
See, even that basically pukes me out because it implies he actually has the power to do so, and in my opinion, he doesn't.
Are you as a non-shipper (the way I'm a non-J/G shipper, except by default) willing to accept canon J/I/G, if they went that way?
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Sure. The more, the merrier. I really, really don't like Gwen as a character, mostly because I think she's an evil bitch to Rhys, who seems like a really nice guy, but if they suddenly went with canon J/I/G, sure, why not? It would seem more fitting with Jack's character, and even, really, with Ianto's as I perceive it.
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Even if he was only in charge since 2000, I'm still convinced that Jack has been fucking his way through TW employees from the minute he first got down with Emily and Alice and it's never been any kind of relationship that could distract him from his primary objective: The Doctor.
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Because I've always felt that the Jack who came back to TW post LotTL was kind of done with the Doctor. Mostly because I thought the Doctor acted like a dick to Jack in S3 Who, and didn't have any answers for him. I kind of figured Jack's quest for the Doctor was over after that (his hero worship of him as an actual hero who can save the world in TSE/JE notwithstanding), certainly from a romantic standpoint, anyway.
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Not a doubt in my mind.
Now and forever. The fact that the Doctor broke his heart doesn't change that. Did you hear his voice when he said "I found my Doctor." (Ianto obviously did because he went into possessive/whiny mode.) The minute he had a working wrist-strap where did he go? (Yes, I've heard the whole...well, he knew they could take care of themselves...no he didn't.)
What was Jack's most "Old Jack" moment in the Finale?
Yeah, babe. All About THE DOCTOR. Now and forever, until his Doctor comes back and it's just for him.
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Let's see. Owen watched the love of his life succumb to an illness, did everything he could to save her, only to have her die. Ianto watched the love of his life succumb to fatal injuries, did everything he could to save her only to see her die.
Owen watched as a woman he loved flew off into the Rift rather than stay and make a go of their relationship. Ianto watched as the man he loved (?) flew off on the TARDIS rather than stay with him.
Owen was beaten up by a Weevil (although he did voluntarily step into the cage). Ianto was beaten up by cannibals. I will concede that Owen has been shot more times than Ianto, but Ianto did have a gun put to his head and the trigger pulled.
I will also concede that Jack has suffered a lot over the years, but then he has had 160+ years to pack the suffering in. (one wonders if he has reached the 800+ dead colleagues total that Ianto has racked up so far)
Tosh, well she's got the whole thrown in UNIT custody for terrorist crimes deal, but then she did commit the crime (I don't care how motivated she was, she built a weapon, she made a working weapon and handed it over to a terrorist group) And yes she's had the whole 'dead girlfriend' experience - seems to be a Torchwood rite of passage. She too was assaulted by cannibals - but got away with less damage than Ianto. Does she whine? Well she's certainly turned on the waterworks often enough. (IIRC, even some of the writers have commented on how a 'good episode' tended to end with Tosh in tears)
And again, perhaps it's a matter of looking at the episodes through different eyes, but I do not see Ianto's actions or reactions as being 'whining'. Let's see, your boss/friend/part time shag, dissappears without warning and returns to tell you he found what he'd been looking for. I don't think it's whining to ask whether he's going to dissapear again.
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