tencrush | I was just fucking witcha...

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I was just fucking witcha...

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

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*crawls under duvet*

*brings Twizzlers*

See, yes, it's all about the warnings. One fan's squick is another fan's pleasure, so they're both warning and advertisement.

so they're both warning and advertisement.

Oh yes... I've learnt that in the other fandoms i've been playing in (dear god, I feel so kinda wrong for some of them, but hey - it's all fun and games til someone loses an eye *lol*)

:D

Also? I know this is going to sound a bit silly since this is all Stuff Wot Is Made Up In Other People's Heads, but Jack is a 51st century guy and we're 21st century, so what True Love means to him might come off as strange to us. Especially since we're still heavily invested in traditions like marriage and raising kids and buying houses and whatnot.

I agree with this vehemently. Jack is shown in TW as being relatively adjusted to his current environment but we get shown enough to be reminded once in a while that he's really, really not exactly "in tune" with everyone around him. His charming persona and ability to adapt have lessened the obvious differences but if you squint, it's still there.

And also I agree that Ianto is definitely a sort of stealth puppeteer rather than a victim. He knows and probably influences much more than anyone else realizes.

Edited 2008-05-13 22:54 (UTC)

Okay, I don't have time to wade through all 133 comments so far, so forgive me if this has been said already. :)

While I agree that the way that Jack/Ianto has been written has a number of flaws, I don't think that this is one of them. I think that the "Jack thoughtlessly using Ianto as a sex toy" interpretation is the result of people bringing their own preconceptions to the show, and trying to impose heteronormative preconceptions about boss/secretary relationships onto Jack/Ianto. The fact is, all evidence from the show suggests that Ianto is the one who initiates sexual most of the sexual encounters between them-- when we see Jack initiating (Cyberwoman, End of Days, KKBB, Adam) it's usually something romantic (kisses, dates, hugs)-- while Ianto initates romantic stuff too, he's usually the one we see initiating actual sexual encounters.

I think that the only way that the writers could avoid some people jumping to the sex-toy conclusion (due to their own social conditioning) would be to go all-out smoochy romantic, "I love you", like so much fanfic. And even then, people would just try to impose another set of heteronormative assumptions on their arses-- they'd be configured as a traditional "husband and wife" team-- and personally, I feel that many of those dynamics are just as distrubing as the boss/secretary dynamics imposed by the "sex toy" group.

Honestly, I don't think that the writers can really get out of this one, because the problem (in this instance) isn't the writing; the problem is societal attitudes towards gender and sexuality.

I just had a thought -- had Torchwood gone the route of Jack/Gwen, well, wouldn't that *be* the "hetronormative male boss/female subordinate" relationship or the traditional "husband and wife team" relationship? All the problems inherent in Jack/Ianto due to the power imbalance between the two would apply to Jack/Gwen as well, and without the easy out they've been using of making Ianto the sexually aggressive one. Because, you know, make a woman sexually aggressive and she'll be labeled a slut in a blink of the eye. We think they've made a mess of Jack/Ianto, but just imagine all the ways Jack/Gwen could have gone wrong! :D

I don't think Jack is a sleep-around type of guy even if he flirts with anything with a heartbeat. I mean look at season 2 how many people has he even flirted with? off the top of my head I counted 3 people (excluding Gwen whose a on/off flirt) John, Ruth and Martha but he hasn't gone that extra mile and it lessens as the season progresses.

They don't have the perfect relationship, it was never going to be the fairytale Gwen and Rhys has but its as damn near to one as we've gotten. I admit that there relationship gets a lot of flack but maybe neither of them are prepared yet to show how deep their feelings are because its a young relationship (I believe a season just about covers a year)and that's why everyone thinks its just shagging, the dance i will say is Ianto saying 'yes, we are together' but that's the extent of it. Look at the negative comments Gwen and Owen pour onto the relationship Gwen's comments in FOOTR while funny is quite homophobic and Owen, the times he's made the shagging Jack comments have come at times when his role has been in question: opening the rift and losing his position. First time in a way was spot on we know they shagged but not how the relationship was second time i will say Owen is jealous because Ianto has someone and he doesn't.

To use TW to promote any kind of relationship is a bad thing. heterosexual, gay and lesbian relationships are all deeply broken in this show.

p.s. I do also think they should have done a Jack/Ianto scene in EW just like the Gwen/Rhys scene.

While I agree with you, and I don't think TW should be used to promote any sort of relationship, I do think that, as you and others have said, there's quite an underlying jokey feel about the way Jack/Ianto is portrayed on screen, and some of that does border on the homophobic. And for a show that touts itself as being so progressive, I think they've missed a trick by not counteracting that homophobia with one or two overt signs of there being more to Jack/Ianto than sex. And like you say, a Jack/Ianto scene in EW would have fixed that and would have only taken a few seconds.

I slag off TPTB a lot, I know, but funnily enough I firmly believe a J/I scene in EW was planned or even shot and cut, simply because I find it hard to believe that someone somewhere didn't have at least the artistic vision to think that it would be a nice mirroring of the two main relationships to show Jack and Ianto offering each other comfort in whatever shape it is that that would take, and thereby show the audience the ways in which the Jack/Ianto relationship differs from the Gwen/Rhys one, but also the ways in which it is fundamentally the same.

I think you probably have a point there, and I do think it's an exceptionally tricky one, becuase the alternatives are fraught with just as much problems as the portrayal as it stands. And it's not so much the "Jack's thoughtlessly using Ianto as a sex toy" thing that bothers me, it's the "Jack is the kind of guy who would thoughtlessly use people as a sex toy" conclusion that that implies. That possible perception of Jack could be fixed within the Jack/Ianto relationship, or it could be fixed elsewhere, but I just feel it's something that needs adressing, anywhere really, because they seem so sure of themselves in having created a thoroughly modern, sexually liberated hero.

The problem for me is that over the whole series I haven't been able to construct a solid view of my own on the relationship between Jack and Ianto or even on Jack himself. I find myself flip flopping like some kind of suffocating fish over it.
I sympathise, yeah. I feel the same sometimes. like I said, I'm slightly more of a casual viewer in that I don't watch it that often, and I have found it helpful to read the interpretations of others who have watched more often than I have in assessing Jack and Jack/Ianto (funnily enough, not Ianto, my views on Ianto are pretty fixed and all my own, but then GDL's acting really works for me in the exact same way it really doesn't work for some other people. He's just my kind of actor, and I understand the character.) The very fact that I need to read other people's meta to help me assess what I'm looking at is something I find quite telling and just a bit worrying, because I'm an intelligent, well-rounded person, and I don't have a problem with subtlety at all. But yeah, there's evidence to support every way of looking at it and I just wish they'd narrowed it down somewhat by making their bloody minds up.

I agree with all of this, but certain points call to me particularly strongly:

- the jealousy/territory issues don't have to be about sex and love: there's a lot of mentorship stuff going on too (I actually thing Jack and Ianto are a lot alike and part of the dynamic is Ianto wanting/needing guidance about how to manage his own personal power and Jack being both someone who loves to take care of people and a bit of a narcissist).

This is very good. I hadn't seen the mentorship angle in this context, but it makes a hell of a lot of sense, to me. Also, I agree very strongly with you that Jack and Ianto are a lot alike, and that Ianto is struggling with how to manage his personal power. (I think that may be one reason why he's such a chameleon, at this point in his life.) He certainly has enough personal power to override Jack right from the beginning, and that seems to be what Jack craves in a partner/love interest. None of the others can do that with the quiet authority that Ianto exerts.

Also, Jack has been blurting stuff out to Ianto since their first encounter with the pterodactyl. I really loved that touch in 'Fragments.' Something about Ianto propelled Jack into revealing impossible things to him right from the start, and it had to be more than just his experience at Torchwood London. (Jack doesn't reveal these sorts of things to Gwen or anyone else on the team unless he has to.) I'd dearly love to see more on this, but it's a lovely little bit for the fans to chaw on, even if they don't elaborate on it.

- the interpretation of Ianto through a feminizing lens annoys the shit out of me -- I actually think Jack acts in a more feminine manner most of the time (he flirts like a woman; it's fascinating to me).

If I agreed any more strongly with you on this than I do, the sympathetic vibrations would rip the Internet apart.

- also just because Jack is shitty at communicating doesn't mean non-monogamy is bad -- I loathe interpretations of the show that are about how the solution to the Jack/Ianto situation is monogamy. For all we know they are being monogamous, but regardless, that doesn't seem to be the problem -- it's the information balance that's all screwed up.

This is so true! It looks very much as though Jack and Ianto are being monogamous on the show, but it sure as hell isn't going to solve anything. The information balance has always been the critical problem between Jack and everyone else on the team. If I had to work for him, I'd turn into a screaming harpy that would make Gwen look reserved. (Either that, or I'd spend a great deal of time kicking him in various painful places.) It certainly seems that Ianto has become more secure as series 2 progressed, and we were shown that he'd been let in on more of Jack's secrets. I just hope that this doesn't all get jossed in series 3. (If there really is going to be a series 3.)

Catherine

I see what you mean, but I think that part of the problem is that for a lot of people, they aren't going to get it unless you hit them over the head with a Pythonesque 16-ton weight. There are a lot of subtle hints that indicate that Jack's not that sort of guy-- he may have sex with a lot of people, but he doesn't use them for sex.

I think that Fragments is a really good example of a subtle indication that Jack doesn't go for the whole sex toy thing-- and it's a good example of how people don't pick up on that. In that ep, we see Ianto basically offerring himself as Jack's sex toy, the first two times they meet. Jack is a little flattered, but he's essentially not interested. Most people come to the conclusion that by adorning the suit, Ianto became the sort of guy that Jack liked, but that's not actually the case-- Jack rejects him several times while he's wearing the suit, and the change only comes after they laugh together. To me, that said really powerfully that for Jack, that emotional connection is essential. It's not that he needs to be in love with everyone he sleeps with, and he's certainly capable of casual encounters-- it's just that even with the most casual encounter, I think he needs to be in touch with them emotionally as well as physically.

The problem is, if you had Jack articulate that directly, then it would be way too didactic; it would seem unnatural. But of course, when it remains subtle, people impose their own assumptions about promiscuous men (that they exploit others, etc).

True, very true.

I like your Fragments take, I've also never subscribed to the suit explanation, I always took that meeting as Ianto just being more himself than anything else, and while I think the suit is possibly part of some elaborate in-joke between them, as is the "Sir" and the whole butler thing, I don't think Jack's attraction had anything to do with the suit, but was based entirely on the way they were with each other. I see the first meeting in Fragments as Ianto trying it on on a superficial sexual level and getting nowhere, the second as Ianto just basically pleading with Jack and taking up a slightly more submissive position than would normally be his nature to do (not very successfully I might add, given his physical in-your-face-ness) and not really getting anywhere either, and in the third, the suit being besides the point, Ianto just more or less being his competent, slightly take-charge, I-will-challenge-you self, which Jack likes and culminates in them laughing together and realsing there's an attraction there, and it's not superficial.

Sorry, I veered off-topic then. :)

are you familiar with Angry Puppy? it's a blog for gay geeks. in their video blog, the two guys who run the site, discuss TW on a weekly basis. a few weeks ago, they revealed their theory of janto. they think that jack is basically straight and falls in love with women (estelle, gwen, his unnamed wife) and has shags with men (ianto, various men decsribed in anecdotes). they think that if he hadn't grown up in such a liberal time and had the experience of time travel in disparate cultures that jack would essentially be a straight guy.

that was an interpretation that i had never considered, btu one that is born out by the evidence. jack does tend to mention men as shags, and seems to view women as love objects. the only man that we know he loved was the doctor and the doctor is always a special case.

my point is this: the janto ship is ridiculous. to have any sense of them as a couple, you have to watch the show in order, then go back and rewatch season one after viewing fragments, read the captains blog, and analyze every lingering look to death.

that's essentially what you have to do to sustain a SLASH 'ship, not a canonical gay relationship. maybe that's the source of your frustration. i'll walk five miles in a blizzard to interpret and sustain my slash pairing, but canonical 'ships, even gay 'ships should be right there on the screen.

i think i understand the jack/ianto relationship. from reading your blog, i think we have similar views, but the idea that jack uses ianto is very understandable. jack "cheated" on ianto in captain jack harkness, made googly eyes at Gwen throught season 2 and seemed to have a special bond with her in season 1. then you have ianto, who is a confirmed fool for love (cybewoman) sniffing jack's coat and crying in end of days. that gives one the sense that ianto loves more and the person who loves more is always in an inferior position. it's not that jacks a bastard, but the sense is that jack has affection for ianto, while ianto deeply loves jack.

my hope for season 3? that jack and ianto break up. seriously. that'll give them a chance to re-build somethjing onscreen, so then we'll see why they care for each other.

It's certainly an interpretation that has occurred to me. I explained it here a few months back. i don't subscribe to it, but I think it's been made slightly too easy to come to that conclusion.

And I never really thought about the slash thing, I've never been much of a slasher, but that's hilariously true. Slash is all about interpreting little glances and body language and MAKING UP a relationship based on nothing more than a few ambiguous looks and remarks. You shouldn't have to go to that amount of trouble for a CANON ship. It's just weird.

I mentioned having them break up as being the only clean solution, but I got just a tad flamed for it. So I'm keeping quiet now. :/

I agree with this completely! As someone who loves, plays, and identifies with Jack more than Ianto, it always irks me to see janto fic written with Jack as this very closed-off, almost abusive aggressor. He's dark, yes, but unlike the Doctor (who tends to distance himself from humans a little) Jack loves to get close to people, even if it'll bring him hurt; he throws his whole being into loving his employees and any threat to them angers him greatly. There's been a time when he was almost married, for crying out loud.

He may be the most forthcoming of people when it comes to his past, but it has never been a doubt in my mind that Jack originally pursued Ianto to help him recover from Lisa — Ianto's words in the Adam episode underline this for me. Yes, he likes sex and yes he is open about it but I don't see him ever forcing a partner to do something against their will, degrading them or making them feel anything less than loved (unless it was part of a D/s or BDSM game, in which case it's understood that it's a case of sexual power and overall would have the partner's permission.)

The other characters might dismiss Ianto as a "part-time shag" and it's definitely an open relationship, at least in the sense that Jack still loves the Doctor and has no problem flirting with Martha, kissing John, etc etc; it's obvious he dousn't believe in monogamy. But Ianto seems to have wholehearted passion for Jack, and we know from Lisa what he'll do for those he loves. Jack, on the other hand, definitely enjoys Ianto's looks and has no shame in expressing his desire, but the idea that he would be WILLING to shag anything because he's open-minded does not translate through to the idea that he would use his power over Ianto to get sex. Especially not after the interim between S1 and S2, when he had an entire year to think about his team, and the conclusions he come to result in his asking Ianto on a date when he gets back; perhaps to dismiss the "part-time shag" idea from Ianto's teammates, and maybe Ianto himself's mind.

Sorry for the long comment. In short: YES YES YES this annoys me too, it upsets me when people interpret Jack as such a two-dimensional slut type.

edited for typos and spacing weirdness

Edited 2008-05-14 08:00 (UTC)

I'd actually go further, though, and say that even without the sex toy interpretation, the very straightforward and reasonably widespread interpretation that Ianto has way deeper feelings for Jack than Jack does for Ianto already on some level does Jack no favours as a character, because it implies that Jack has all the power in their working relationship, being Ianto's boss, and is also happy to enter into a personal relationship where the power is skewed in his favour, the one being more deeply in love (and as you say, we KNOW how deeply Ianto can love) being the one who is more dependent and therefore more powerless. That in and of itself, to me, paints a slightly squicky picture of Jack as the kind of guy who doesn't have a problem with that imbalance.

Which I think is a silly interpretation; Jack doesn't just love Ianto, but his entire team in a debilitating way. Jack has an unfortunate tendency to love people hopelessly, especially tragic given he's doomed to outlive pretty much all of them, and while he may not want his personal authority as Torchwood leader to be overthrown by the team's knowledge of his private life and past, every single thing he does for his team, especially Ianto and especially in Season Two, has me firmly believing they are his highest priority in life. Jack is a very lonely man, and after all; they're all he's got, really.

I'm not totally clear on what you or rm mean by "information balance," but I do think one characteristic that makes Ianto very compatible with Jack is his apparent ability to cope with having less than complete information. You mention Jack blurting out stuff to Ianto in Fragments, and what I found notable about that was not just Jack blurting out all that stuff, but Ianto taking it all in with barely a blink. He doesn't hound Jack about the wound that stopped bleeding abnormally fast, 51st century pheromones, or having dinasours for breakfast. Knowing Ianto, I feel he would have tucked those pieces of information away, to be called up later at a moment's notice if he found any other relevant info to tie them to. But in that moment, he seems satisfied with just focusing on the task at hand. In KKBB, while the others are grumbling about Jack never telling them anything, Ianto just points out that it's more fun when Jack's around. I think this was also in KKBB, but there's a scene somewhere where Jack asks Gwen to accept him for who he is now -- and I remember thinking that he'd never have to ask that of Ianto, because Ianto already does. Ianto just strikes me as being comfortable with whatever Jack decides to reveal to him without needing to ask for more, and ironically, that seems to cause Jack to relax and tell Ianto more than he tells anyone else.

I also thought that about EW - there just seemed to be sooo much to fit in that I wondered if a J/I scene had been cut. I've also wondered if the writers are coy with J/I because they are wary of defining Jack by his sexuality? As much as it'd be great if this wasn't the case, it's pretty rare to have the lead of a sci-fi show in a same-sex relationship. This would maybe not have been a problem with Gwen as, like it or not, boy-girl relationships are the norm for this kind of programme so it wouldn't be questioned. I'd be worried about Jack becoming "Gay action hero Jack Harkness" rather than "Action hero Jack Harkness, who happens to be sleeping with a man as well as having a lot of other characteristics" in viewers' minds. And about Torchwood being seen as some kind of sci-fi Will & Grace. Does that make any kind of sense?

Yes, that does, actually! Finally what I can consider a "legitimate" reason for the writers to be "coy with J/I." Thank you!

My favourite part of that scene in KKBB is the end "Why are we helping him?" "He's a reminder of my past and I want him gone." It's the most open and forthcoming answer Jack's ever given anyone, and certainly the most honest answer he gives anyone in that particular episode (he fobs Gwen's questions off several times) and it's a very telling sign of how they are with each other, even in this pre-dating stage. Ianto doesn't push Jack for answers and Jack rewards that respect with honesty when Ianto DOES ask a question he really NEEDS to hear the answer to.

It really struck me as a missing scene moment, not even in so much as I felt emotionally cheated, I really just visually felt like there was something missing. The Gwen/Rhys scene kind of came out of nowhere and went nowhere and Torchwood isn't often edited like that.

I think you may have a point there about the gay action hero, yes. But I do think they like to show off and pat themselves on the back for having created a "sexually liberated action hero", and they're in danger of jeopardising that if they're not careful.

I think I understand what you're saying here. I've never seen Ianto as the type of guy to let someone use him like that, no matter how screwed up in the head he might be. I love his character to bits so it really annoys me when people see him like that, as just Jack's boytoy.

And Jack. I think he's a flirt, a major flirt lol, and I also think that yeah he has slept around a lot. But, I don't see him as the guy who would use someone like that. Especially after what he and Ianto have been through. And when we first met Jack in Doctor Who he was a con-man but not what you would call a 'real badass conman' - he specifically told The Doctor that no one gets hurt. And when he found out that he had done he was all 'holy shit what the HELL have I done'. I dunno, to me someone who is a slut and uses people sexually I see as not caring what the other person feels, and I definitely don't see that with Jack.

Hey look, I rambled too! Hope I make sense...

I think they have a very thin line to tread. Do you know, while messing about on the Internet, I came across a message board from after S1 in which someone actually said "I hope they give Jack and Ianto girlfriends in S2 because that kiss in End of Days was sick" !!!!!! And while there were quite a few "er...what?!?" responses there were also quite a few which said "Well, they can have J/I if they want but they should keep it in the background - definitely no kissing." Anyway, I don't really have a point to make with this, except just !!!!!!

Jack asked Ianto not to call him Sir in the first episode of Season 2, since then he has never called him sir again.

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