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If I may intrude on the dom/sub discussion...
Sleeper is one of the episodes that convinced me that Ianto has a dom personality, but the antenna scene has little to do with it. It's the way he subtly challenges Jack's treatment of Beth, starting with the "Just us and this room..." scene. When Jack growls at Ianto at the end of that exchange, it looks like Jack is intimidating Ianto, but if you look carefully, Ianto doesn't give an inch, if anything, he leans even more forward, and it's Jack who turns and walks away, effectively backing down.
And I'm afraid I have to run, but there are more examples of subtle stuff like that all over the various episodes.
Sleeper is one of the episodes that convinced me that Ianto has a dom personality, but the antenna scene has little to do with it. It's the way he subtly challenges Jack's treatment of Beth, starting with the "Just us and this room..." scene. When Jack growls at Ianto at the end of that exchange, it looks like Jack is intimidating Ianto, but if you look carefully, Ianto doesn't give an inch, if anything, he leans even more forward, and it's Jack who turns and walks away, effectively backing down.
And I'm afraid I have to run, but there are more examples of subtle stuff like that all over the various episodes.
And, haha, I don't see him as John's top. (Except maybe professionally, "I was the only one who could keep him under control"-- I mean, that's not even the same as "I was his commanding officer", is it?)
Interesting. I don't see much from Jack either, but I see some very bottomy behaviour from John, in both episodes he's in, but Exit Wounds especially.
I don't think Jack's bedroom persona is necessarily the same as the way he runs his life. (Also, btw, I see him as having more of a weakness re: getting swayed by his heart than re: getting swayed by his cock.)
I agree with you on the heart thing, I just said cock as well to cover myself, really. But I do think Jack's anecdotes show him as at least being sexually quite adventurous, which is a GREAT quality for a sub. (It's not that that's not a great quality for a Dom as well, because it is.)
...I was just about to type that Jack soon learned to trust Ianto to take the lead, but then I remembered that they do have a lot of trust issues, and now my ideas are all scrambled again.
I don't actually thinhk that at this moment in time they have any trust issues between them. I think their trust issues coming from Cyberwoman were cleared up pretty quickly (I personally believe they were cleared up between Lisa's death and the last scene, and I believe there was something sexual going on there, but I'll leave that for another day.) And whatever trust Ianto broke with Lisa, Jack did leave Ianto for the Doctor without a word, so I think they're pretty much even.
As far as BDSM personality types go, I firmly see Ianto as a Dominant masochist and Jack as a submissive masochist. Maybe I'll write up why one of these days, but I'd really have to gather up my thoughts on the subject. Ianto's very emotionally reserved and I think for him to let go and trust a Dom and be a successful submissive would require AN AWFUL LOT OF EFFORT on both his and the Dom's part, and would involve some serious mindfuckery and probably a great deal of pain, he's got some HUGE BARRIERS when it comes to letting stuff out.
Interesting. I don't see much from Jack either, but I see some very bottomy behaviour from John, in both episodes he's in, but Exit Wounds especially.
I don't think Jack's bedroom persona is necessarily the same as the way he runs his life. (Also, btw, I see him as having more of a weakness re: getting swayed by his heart than re: getting swayed by his cock.)
I agree with you on the heart thing, I just said cock as well to cover myself, really. But I do think Jack's anecdotes show him as at least being sexually quite adventurous, which is a GREAT quality for a sub. (It's not that that's not a great quality for a Dom as well, because it is.)
...I was just about to type that Jack soon learned to trust Ianto to take the lead, but then I remembered that they do have a lot of trust issues, and now my ideas are all scrambled again.
I don't actually thinhk that at this moment in time they have any trust issues between them. I think their trust issues coming from Cyberwoman were cleared up pretty quickly (I personally believe they were cleared up between Lisa's death and the last scene, and I believe there was something sexual going on there, but I'll leave that for another day.) And whatever trust Ianto broke with Lisa, Jack did leave Ianto for the Doctor without a word, so I think they're pretty much even.
As far as BDSM personality types go, I firmly see Ianto as a Dominant masochist and Jack as a submissive masochist. Maybe I'll write up why one of these days, but I'd really have to gather up my thoughts on the subject. Ianto's very emotionally reserved and I think for him to let go and trust a Dom and be a successful submissive would require AN AWFUL LOT OF EFFORT on both his and the Dom's part, and would involve some serious mindfuckery and probably a great deal of pain, he's got some HUGE BARRIERS when it comes to letting stuff out.
I think if the only way Ianto and the Doctor would get together is if the plot somehow foisted them together -- which you know, is the way the Doctor acquires most of his companions after all. Ianto would need a reason to go with the doctor (other than just to see the sights) because he's a very responsible person and feels his duties too strongly to give in on the impulse. The Doctor hasn't kidnapped an unwilling companion in a long time. These days the doctor seems to crave someone who will tell him when he's wrong, but Ianto is the type rather than directly confronting people he disagrees with, to quietly go behind their back and "fix" the problem on his own, especially if he's overwhelmed by the other's personality. I think this tendency would initially drive the Doctor nuts. This would lead to an argument, but then be resolved when Ianto learns to tell the Doctor when he disagrees, which makes the Doctor more comfortable. After that the Doctor grew to enjoy Ianto spoiling him by anticipating all his needs (which makes Ianto feel happy and useful). And the two will click seamlessly together as comedic lead (Doctor) and straight man (Ianto).
D/s? Of course Jack would be dom. He might prefer to top from the bottom, but there is no getting around the fact that Jack doms Ianto outside of the bedroom all the time. Jack has enormous RL power over Ianto. Jack is Ianto's boss who can retcon him and toss him out of a job if he ever gets too displeased. At most Ianto would only rollplay the dom if Jack asked him to, but it would only be a paper thin game, and not a true lifestyle choice. If Jack wants to be truly submissive he needs to find a partner he's not IRL responsible for.
I refuse to think that Torchwood 1 hired trash, or that straight laced Ianto would commit petty crime. If that's in his file, Ianto must have tampered with it for some reason known only to him.
D/s? Of course Jack would be dom. He might prefer to top from the bottom, but there is no getting around the fact that Jack doms Ianto outside of the bedroom all the time. Jack has enormous RL power over Ianto. Jack is Ianto's boss who can retcon him and toss him out of a job if he ever gets too displeased. At most Ianto would only rollplay the dom if Jack asked him to, but it would only be a paper thin game, and not a true lifestyle choice. If Jack wants to be truly submissive he needs to find a partner he's not IRL responsible for.
I refuse to think that Torchwood 1 hired trash, or that straight laced Ianto would commit petty crime. If that's in his file, Ianto must have tampered with it for some reason known only to him.
Of course Jack would be dom. He might prefer to top from the bottom, but there is no getting around the fact that Jack doms Ianto outside of the bedroom all the time.
And that has to do with what he does inside the bedroom in what way, exactly?
Jack has enormous RL power over Ianto. Jack is Ianto's boss who can retcon him and toss him out of a job if he ever gets too displeased.
Ouch. Sounds like a bad starting point for a Dom to me. Just sayin'.
If Jack wants to be truly submissive he needs to find a partner he's not IRL responsible for.
Really? Why is that?
I'm not trying to smack you down or anything, I really thought the answers would be far more clear cut to that question and I'm surprised, so I'm quizzing people on what earthly reason they would have to see Jack as the Dominant, because I really don't see it, not theoretically (I don't Ianto would make a good sub because I don't think he has the personality for it, and likewise with Jack, I think Jack's FAR TOO emotional) nor from anything we've actually witnessed on screen.
I think I might have to devote a separate post to this question.
And that has to do with what he does inside the bedroom in what way, exactly?
Jack has enormous RL power over Ianto. Jack is Ianto's boss who can retcon him and toss him out of a job if he ever gets too displeased.
Ouch. Sounds like a bad starting point for a Dom to me. Just sayin'.
If Jack wants to be truly submissive he needs to find a partner he's not IRL responsible for.
Really? Why is that?
I'm not trying to smack you down or anything, I really thought the answers would be far more clear cut to that question and I'm surprised, so I'm quizzing people on what earthly reason they would have to see Jack as the Dominant, because I really don't see it, not theoretically (I don't Ianto would make a good sub because I don't think he has the personality for it, and likewise with Jack, I think Jack's FAR TOO emotional) nor from anything we've actually witnessed on screen.
I think I might have to devote a separate post to this question.
Okay, I might be using D/s different from you. If you mean D/s as a relationship where one member always accepts the other as his lord and master, and always behaves properly submissive towards the other, it doesn't work that Jack is sub.
If by D/s all you mean is bedroom games, who tops, playing fetch and that sort of thing, there's no knowing, though what few signs I see from the show, Jack is described as Avant Garde -- which suggests he's in creative control of their sexual romps, and also that he cheats -- which suggests he's in control over how the sexual romps are played. Neither of those are submissive behaviors. We have no indication of how Ianto behaves during their romps.
If by D/s all you mean is bedroom games, who tops, playing fetch and that sort of thing, there's no knowing, though what few signs I see from the show, Jack is described as Avant Garde -- which suggests he's in creative control of their sexual romps, and also that he cheats -- which suggests he's in control over how the sexual romps are played. Neither of those are submissive behaviors. We have no indication of how Ianto behaves during their romps.
Yeah... Jack's power over Ianto is actually a bit of a sticking point to me, and one of the reasons I can't read a lot of Janto fics. Because the way I see it, Janto is, at it's core, fucked up, and I prefer it when people acknowlege that fact.
There are reasons for these workplace rules. Ianto says it himself, it's sexual harrassment. As great as it may be now, Ianto is smart enough to know that there is always this huge threat over his head if their relationship goes badly sour -- and Jack is an emotional and somewhat impulsive being -- look at some of the crap he's pulled with Gwen and she never even slept with him. Or the fact that he abandoned his own crew to take off on a whim, and didn't seem that contrite about it. Getting on Jacks bad side would be bad.
What's more, their relationship appears to have begun shortly after the Cyberwoman incident, when Ianto's job was particularly vulnerable, and he was facing possible legal problems for his behavior, and generally was at Jack's mercy.
There are reasons for these workplace rules. Ianto says it himself, it's sexual harrassment. As great as it may be now, Ianto is smart enough to know that there is always this huge threat over his head if their relationship goes badly sour -- and Jack is an emotional and somewhat impulsive being -- look at some of the crap he's pulled with Gwen and she never even slept with him. Or the fact that he abandoned his own crew to take off on a whim, and didn't seem that contrite about it. Getting on Jacks bad side would be bad.
What's more, their relationship appears to have begun shortly after the Cyberwoman incident, when Ianto's job was particularly vulnerable, and he was facing possible legal problems for his behavior, and generally was at Jack's mercy.
Put together some illustrations. Spoilers for all of S1&S2.
http://nightspring.livejournal.com/138681.html
http://nightspring.livejournal.com/138681.html
No, I don't mean lifestyle/24-7 D/s or M/s or anything like that, it's been made very clear from KKBB that their work and private life are going to be two different things from now on. I mean, if their bedroom games involved any sort of power exchange/domination and submission, who would be relinquishing power and who would be accepting it. (Regardless of who would top/bottom.)
I think that would be entirely up to the desires and whims of the writer. Either way could be justified. But honestly, that's a bit like arguing whether Jack likes whips or paddles better based on his personality. Either way it would be a matter of taste that, if it is clear that they keep their professional and private lives completely distinct, has no canon justification.
Once you discount how they behave together in public (where all snarkiness aside, Ianto usually defers to Jack without arguement), there's nothing to go on, because the only canon sexual experience didn't show any dominance or submission on either of their parts.
I can argue what I prefer (I like Jack to be morally ambiguous shading to shady, and I like their relationship to have abuse of power overtones) but I can't fault those who prefer Jack as submissive once the doors are closed, because that can be tasty too. I don't see any canon justification for that, but a good writer can build a bridge to that conclusion easy enough.
Once you discount how they behave together in public (where all snarkiness aside, Ianto usually defers to Jack without arguement), there's nothing to go on, because the only canon sexual experience didn't show any dominance or submission on either of their parts.
I can argue what I prefer (I like Jack to be morally ambiguous shading to shady, and I like their relationship to have abuse of power overtones) but I can't fault those who prefer Jack as submissive once the doors are closed, because that can be tasty too. I don't see any canon justification for that, but a good writer can build a bridge to that conclusion easy enough.
Been reading around... Ah, this is where you are going with D/s.
You see, I don't see meticulousness/emotional as having anything to do with dominance and submission. What is more important is the relationship to each other: In other words who is more responsible, not who is more anal. In fact, being a proper submissive requires a great deal of self-control, one has to put ones own fears and desires on hold and trust your Dom to guide you. Meanwhile a good Dom takes responsibility for the sub, deciding what they feel and when, much like a caring parent. Jack is very parental and responsible when it comes to his people. Ianto is more subserviant and helpful.
You see, I don't see meticulousness/emotional as having anything to do with dominance and submission. What is more important is the relationship to each other: In other words who is more responsible, not who is more anal. In fact, being a proper submissive requires a great deal of self-control, one has to put ones own fears and desires on hold and trust your Dom to guide you. Meanwhile a good Dom takes responsibility for the sub, deciding what they feel and when, much like a caring parent. Jack is very parental and responsible when it comes to his people. Ianto is more subserviant and helpful.
Thank you, that's what I wanted to know, you see Jack as parental and responsible and Ianto as subservient and helpful, and that's why you chose Jack. I don't see any of those things and that's why I chose Ianto.
I'm being pushed to turn this into a separate topic, so I probably will.
I'm being pushed to turn this into a separate topic, so I probably will.
But if he has this degree of distrust of Jack within the bedroom, don't you think he'd be a bit less trusting of Jack outside of the bedroom? Ianto is willing to risk his life following Jacks leads outside, but not risk following Jacks lead for a bedroom game?
Also I don't see Ianto as quite that reserved, he's cried and been comforted on camera by Jack a number of times. Jack really hasn't asked to be comforted by Ianto that I can remember.
But you know who out doms the hell out of both of them: Gwen. Put some leather on that lady, she'd have them both those bad boys licking her boots.
Also I don't see Ianto as quite that reserved, he's cried and been comforted on camera by Jack a number of times. Jack really hasn't asked to be comforted by Ianto that I can remember.
But you know who out doms the hell out of both of them: Gwen. Put some leather on that lady, she'd have them both those bad boys licking her boots.
Yeah, we must really see things differently, because that's a central part of both of their characters. Ianto, the manservant, picking up, making coffee, offering his services as a butler -- and happy with the job. Jack, calling them "kids" comforting them when they are hurt, ordering them around, chastising them when they flub. I think part of why they were all so mad at him when he disappeared on them because he'd failed them as a parent.
And when that happened, who stepped up and took over? Gwen. The person with least seniority took on the responsibility for all the others, because she has a true dominant personality. Meanwhile the most Ianto has asked for was some limits, which is the kind of thing someone who knows they are under someones power asks for. (Gwen doesn't need to ask for limits -- if Jack sets them someplace she doesn't like, she just ignores them.)
And when that happened, who stepped up and took over? Gwen. The person with least seniority took on the responsibility for all the others, because she has a true dominant personality. Meanwhile the most Ianto has asked for was some limits, which is the kind of thing someone who knows they are under someones power asks for. (Gwen doesn't need to ask for limits -- if Jack sets them someplace she doesn't like, she just ignores them.)
I can't really contribute much other than that the questions alone have made me laugh my ass off, and you have thus made my night. Thank you, and I'll be over here in the corner now, still giggling madly.
And yeah, Jack did probably die a gazillion times and broke every single bone in his body while the earth around him slowly shifted and then he died a gazillion times more from asphixiation/asphyxiation/can't be arsed to look up the spelling, and quite frankly, he should've come out of that morgue drawer and gone all HULK!SMASH! on his little brother, because that's what I'd have done. He's probably going to spend the next 25 seasons of Torchwood in expensive therapy.
And yeah, Jack did probably die a gazillion times and broke every single bone in his body while the earth around him slowly shifted and then he died a gazillion times more from asphixiation/asphyxiation/can't be arsed to look up the spelling, and quite frankly, he should've come out of that morgue drawer and gone all HULK!SMASH! on his little brother, because that's what I'd have done. He's probably going to spend the next 25 seasons of Torchwood in expensive therapy.
By all means! I need to get TW fandom people on my flist. :D
I LOVED your analysis of how the meeting between the Doctor and Ianto would go. I can so see it, and it would be *wonderful*. Ever thought of writing a fic?
I understand you reasoning for the D/s roles in Janto, I can't fault your very real logic. But ... the awesomeness of Janto is that it is "fucked up"! I treasure fics that acknowledge and try to explore/subvert this.
I understand you reasoning for the D/s roles in Janto, I can't fault your very real logic. But ... the awesomeness of Janto is that it is "fucked up"! I treasure fics that acknowledge and try to explore/subvert this.
My favorite types of fics is where the characters work through and around the fucked up nature of their relationship. It adds such wonderful tension to have both the sweetness and the wrongness together. Guilty pleasures, self-delusions, acceptance, danger -- it all can make an ordinary PWP zip. I find it disappointing when Janto is done as if they are two backstory-less people living a life of ordinary faithful domestic bliss whose major hurdle is acknowleging whether one truly loves the other. When canon offers me fucked up on a platter, you'd think more people would write to my kink, but no.
If only I weren't working through such massive writers block, I'd totally write it up. Luckily for me there are a number of people who do a decent take on Doctor/Ianto.
If only I weren't working through such massive writers block, I'd totally write it up. Luckily for me there are a number of people who do a decent take on Doctor/Ianto.
I definitely share your fucked-up power-dynamic kink. I think it not less popular, just a whole lot harder to write that generic romantic fluff. I'm a newbie to TW, any recs?
After I voted in the poll, I was talking to a friend about the coat thing.
We've decided that when Rose made Jack Immortal, she also made his coat Immortal, too. It heals all rips and tears going by how often he gets stabbed while wearing it, and it won't get dirty. It's an impossible thing, just like Jack.
Yes, we were grasping at straws, but it's the only thing that makes sense. (Even if we don't think he was wearing it when the Daleks killed him...just ignore that little bit)
We've decided that when Rose made Jack Immortal, she also made his coat Immortal, too. It heals all rips and tears going by how often he gets stabbed while wearing it, and it won't get dirty. It's an impossible thing, just like Jack.
Yes, we were grasping at straws, but it's the only thing that makes sense. (Even if we don't think he was wearing it when the Daleks killed him...just ignore that little bit)
"Do The Young Hip Welsh City Kids Of Today generally speak Welsh, or is it just sort of a you-learn-it-in-school type of thing? Because whatever they do, I think that's probably what Ianto does."
I think he would have gotten at least the basic of Welsh in school but picked up more either through elderly relatives or just his compulsion to know things. The latter tends to tie in w/ my belief that has more than a bit of an eidetic memory.
Morgan
I think he would have gotten at least the basic of Welsh in school but picked up more either through elderly relatives or just his compulsion to know things. The latter tends to tie in w/ my belief that has more than a bit of an eidetic memory.
Morgan
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