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See, in Season 2, I do see Ianto as being the dom. But in Season 1? Jack was probably more dominant.
Agreed 100%!!!
(Personally, I think Ianto would make an excellent Companion. Perhaps RTD needs to make a spinoff of his spinoff.)
(Personally, I think Ianto would make an excellent Companion. Perhaps RTD needs to make a spinoff of his spinoff.)
Can there be a Part the Third? Because this is awesome.
*found my way here from comms*
I think Ianto and the Doctor would immediately dislike each other, because Ianto’s still upset with him for taking his Jack away unexpectedly, and the Doctor never thinks his companions’ boyfriends are good enough.
I voted yes for the shagging-the-Victorian-lesbians, but I actually think he was only doing Alice, not Emily. Emily is apparently "Mrs Holroyd" so I reckon she must spend time with her husband sometimes, which is when Alice gets bored and plays with Jack. Yes, I am quite fond of the idea of Jack/Alice, why do you ask? :D
I never thought about Ianto/Yvonne before in my life, but damn, that’s hot. *goes off to search for fic that must exist somewhere/perhaps has been written because of this poll*
I think Ianto and the Doctor would immediately dislike each other, because Ianto’s still upset with him for taking his Jack away unexpectedly, and the Doctor never thinks his companions’ boyfriends are good enough.
I voted yes for the shagging-the-Victorian-lesbians, but I actually think he was only doing Alice, not Emily. Emily is apparently "Mrs Holroyd" so I reckon she must spend time with her husband sometimes, which is when Alice gets bored and plays with Jack. Yes, I am quite fond of the idea of Jack/Alice, why do you ask? :D
I never thought about Ianto/Yvonne before in my life, but damn, that’s hot. *goes off to search for fic that must exist somewhere/perhaps has been written because of this poll*
Edited 2008-04-17 20:56 (UTC)
Was Jack REALLY buried for ALL THAT TIME, how often did he die and and how did this affect him?
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booh077.livejournal.com
2008-04-17 09:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Was Jack REALLY buried for ALL THAT TIME, how often did he die and and how did this affect him?
This one made my head hurt but the way one of the guys on TW's secret put it, was that he was buried on one timeline, but the signal was picked up on the victorian timeline and they searched for 3 days to find him and dug him up. So he was buried in onetimeline and dug up in another, and then was frozen until exit wounds!
This one made my head hurt but the way one of the guys on TW's secret put it, was that he was buried on one timeline, but the signal was picked up on the victorian timeline and they searched for 3 days to find him and dug him up. So he was buried in onetimeline and dug up in another, and then was frozen until exit wounds!
My take on Ianto meets the Doctor:
Ianto is wary at first because he's afraid that Jack will go away again. Jack trusts the Doctor so Ianto will also trust the Doctor, regardless of what Torchwood One may have instilled in him. I think Ianto would be a little secretly excited that *maybe* the Doctor will ask Jack AND him to go on an adventure or two.
The Doctor will be observant of Ianto but not interactive at first. Until Ianto makes some snarky comment that reveals complete truth about some sticky situation. Then the Doctor will really like him.
They'll bond over their mutual desire for Jack to be happy.
Ianto is wary at first because he's afraid that Jack will go away again. Jack trusts the Doctor so Ianto will also trust the Doctor, regardless of what Torchwood One may have instilled in him. I think Ianto would be a little secretly excited that *maybe* the Doctor will ask Jack AND him to go on an adventure or two.
The Doctor will be observant of Ianto but not interactive at first. Until Ianto makes some snarky comment that reveals complete truth about some sticky situation. Then the Doctor will really like him.
They'll bond over their mutual desire for Jack to be happy.
Re Jack being buried:-
http://community.livejournal.com/omni_fiction/18397.html
(my take on it, already written up and even formatted *g*)
And on the Doctor & Ianto - I think they'd bond over a shared love of information. They both know all kinds of things that nobody else does. It can only either be instant best friends forever or total jealousy.
oh, and the coat is a Time Agent artifact with self-repairing nanogenes.
http://community.livejournal.com/omni_fiction/5162.html#cutid1
http://community.livejournal.com/omni_fiction/18397.html
(my take on it, already written up and even formatted *g*)
And on the Doctor & Ianto - I think they'd bond over a shared love of information. They both know all kinds of things that nobody else does. It can only either be instant best friends forever or total jealousy.
oh, and the coat is a Time Agent artifact with self-repairing nanogenes.
http://community.livejournal.com/omni_fiction/5162.html#cutid1
Edited 2008-04-17 21:46 (UTC)
That was my opinion as well. Kind like a small puppy who needs to be won over with treats and belly rubs.
I once did a fandom poll and used SPSS on the data (and found indeed that the less educated and straighter a person, the less realistic their pr0n scenes were (het and slash). Which is sort of a "durrrr" but now it is a FACT, at least in my skewed sample in my skewed methodology. *lalalahophop*)
That is one of the funniest fandom comments I have EVER read. Hooray mind!sex!!!
May I pretty please friend you?
That is one of the funniest fandom comments I have EVER read. Hooray mind!sex!!!
May I pretty please friend you?
Oops, that above comment was me!
Sorry.
Sorry.
Yeah, and even on his knees he managed to find and yank on every chain Jack had.
I see Ianto as the top, but Jack being not so much into S/M after the Valiant and being tortured by John and Gray. He absolutely lost it when John had him chained up--that was really painful to see.
But I like the image of Ianto with a paddle.
I see Ianto as the top, but Jack being not so much into S/M after the Valiant and being tortured by John and Gray. He absolutely lost it when John had him chained up--that was really painful to see.
But I like the image of Ianto with a paddle.
I love your polls. My only issue is that you frequently have multiple answers that I want to choose. Like all of them.
This must be written.
Also, TARDIS, coffee, yes.
Also, TARDIS, coffee, yes.
The Doctor and Ianto would get along simply because their combined personalities would play off each other. The Doc would love Ianto because of his quick wit, and Ianto would love the Doctor because of his enthusiasm and brilliance.
Jack was buried alive and he died many times. He didn't really experience an awareness of these deaths because he was being crushed with the weight of the soil (had to be at least 1 ton) and couldn't even take a breath because his diaphragm was being constricted. Therefore, he was in a virtual state of death but not dead...I think of it like the radiation room, but with the added benefit of being unconscious.
Jack was buried alive and he died many times. He didn't really experience an awareness of these deaths because he was being crushed with the weight of the soil (had to be at least 1 ton) and couldn't even take a breath because his diaphragm was being constricted. Therefore, he was in a virtual state of death but not dead...I think of it like the radiation room, but with the added benefit of being unconscious.
Maybe he ran out of air rather quickly and was unconscious/"dead" for the remaining time until he was unburied.
Ianto and the Doctor:
I'm not sure they'd have particularly strong feelings. I could see them working well together, sharing a bit of good natured snark on a few different points, etc. but not necessarily passionately going in one direction or the other.
Jack in a big dirty hole:
It strikes me that 2000 years is a Very Long Time. If Jack revives, say, on average, about once per 10 minutes, that means he's potentially capable of dying over 100,000,000 times. Human beings are fascinating, though, in their ability to adjust to almost anything. Also, that coat is ABSOLUTELY magic.
I'm not sure they'd have particularly strong feelings. I could see them working well together, sharing a bit of good natured snark on a few different points, etc. but not necessarily passionately going in one direction or the other.
Jack in a big dirty hole:
It strikes me that 2000 years is a Very Long Time. If Jack revives, say, on average, about once per 10 minutes, that means he's potentially capable of dying over 100,000,000 times. Human beings are fascinating, though, in their ability to adjust to almost anything. Also, that coat is ABSOLUTELY magic.
They'd immediately bond due to something else I shall explain in the comments.
Insta-Ten&Ianto bonding because of their shared love of gadgetry/skience!
Committed, serious and polyamorous.
For a somewhat twisted version of "serious". I think Ianto thinks he's going to die soon. He doesn't anticipate breaking up with Jack before then, but just because he expects to be with Jack for the rest of his life doesn't mean that they're lifepartners or anything like that.
Jack has over the last couple of months finally gotten over his last worries that he maybe shouldn't trust Ianto, and now he's a bit apprehensive that he won't be able to give Ianto everything that a 21st century guy probably wants. Not that Ianto has asked for anything (other than trust) that Jack finds particularly hard, but he's waiting for the other shoe to drop.
He really wants to make this last for as long as Ianto wants him.
IF (and I'm not saying they are, but let's just pretend for the sake of the question) IF Jack and Ianto were D/s, AND IF YOU HAD TO MAKE A CHOICE AND NOT WUSS OUT AND SAY THEY SWITCH, who would be the Dom?
Dammit. Switching really is my true answer, since I don't think that Ianto would be able to hold Jack's attention for long if he weren't versatile. And sheriously, after all the joking about hockey sticks and UNIT caps, can't we agree that Ianto's versatility has been strongly implied?
But you gave us a forced choice, so I had to pick Jack, even though I think he's a natural bottom (and yes I know that bottom and sub aren't necessarily the same thing). I think living in this sexually primitive era has forced Jack to develop that side of himself more than he would have if he'd stayed home. And when it comes to evidence in canon re easily assuming that role and being comfortable with it-- well, there's plenty of evidence for Dom!Jack and not much for Dom!Ianto.
One thing that's been bugging me is the claim that Ianto was the one with all the control in the date scene. What I see in that scene is that Ianto expresses his boundaries, and Jack respects them; Ianto is out of control, nearly breaking down, and Jack-- well. I know that BDSM practitioners have a lot of different opinions about what the top role is / what a top should be like, but to me a good top is someone who makes it safe for for the bottom to do/experience something difficult. So for what we've seen of Jack & Ianto in canon: Yeah, Ianto's there for Jack, but he's there in a "helper" capacity, not in the capacity of someone who controls the field of play to ensure that his partner faces only certain obstacles. And *throws hands in air* darn it, this is more about their work relationship, in which, duh, Jack actually is the leader. We just don't see enough of them in private to know what they're like.
I think they don't necessarily
Ah. Here's what I'm having trouble with. I think they do roleplay, and I think they do bondage and kink and maybe some pain play, not to mention spontaneous games of naked hide and seek, but I just. don't. picture them as being into D/s. Maybe once or twice, but not enough to have persistent roles.
Which is really just the wordiest way I could possibly have rejected your question!
Ianto's past as a shoplifting drifter, TRUFAX?
*cough* I picked made in a vat, but actually I think the shoplifting thing was a very brief phase (meant to impress a juvenile delinquent boy whom he had a crush on) in his mid-teens, whereas the drifter bit came later.
Ianto's had sex with Yvonne Hartman, right? Right?
I miss my old imaginary canon, in which I believed that Ianto was practically a prodigy and Yvonne's special protege / more-or-less adopted son with incest-y vibes.
Um. Did I say that out loud?
Insta-Ten&Ianto bonding because of their shared love of gadgetry/skience!
Committed, serious and polyamorous.
For a somewhat twisted version of "serious". I think Ianto thinks he's going to die soon. He doesn't anticipate breaking up with Jack before then, but just because he expects to be with Jack for the rest of his life doesn't mean that they're lifepartners or anything like that.
Jack has over the last couple of months finally gotten over his last worries that he maybe shouldn't trust Ianto, and now he's a bit apprehensive that he won't be able to give Ianto everything that a 21st century guy probably wants. Not that Ianto has asked for anything (other than trust) that Jack finds particularly hard, but he's waiting for the other shoe to drop.
He really wants to make this last for as long as Ianto wants him.
IF (and I'm not saying they are, but let's just pretend for the sake of the question) IF Jack and Ianto were D/s, AND IF YOU HAD TO MAKE A CHOICE AND NOT WUSS OUT AND SAY THEY SWITCH, who would be the Dom?
Dammit. Switching really is my true answer, since I don't think that Ianto would be able to hold Jack's attention for long if he weren't versatile. And sheriously, after all the joking about hockey sticks and UNIT caps, can't we agree that Ianto's versatility has been strongly implied?
But you gave us a forced choice, so I had to pick Jack, even though I think he's a natural bottom (and yes I know that bottom and sub aren't necessarily the same thing). I think living in this sexually primitive era has forced Jack to develop that side of himself more than he would have if he'd stayed home. And when it comes to evidence in canon re easily assuming that role and being comfortable with it-- well, there's plenty of evidence for Dom!Jack and not much for Dom!Ianto.
One thing that's been bugging me is the claim that Ianto was the one with all the control in the date scene. What I see in that scene is that Ianto expresses his boundaries, and Jack respects them; Ianto is out of control, nearly breaking down, and Jack-- well. I know that BDSM practitioners have a lot of different opinions about what the top role is / what a top should be like, but to me a good top is someone who makes it safe for for the bottom to do/experience something difficult. So for what we've seen of Jack & Ianto in canon: Yeah, Ianto's there for Jack, but he's there in a "helper" capacity, not in the capacity of someone who controls the field of play to ensure that his partner faces only certain obstacles. And *throws hands in air* darn it, this is more about their work relationship, in which, duh, Jack actually is the leader. We just don't see enough of them in private to know what they're like.
I think they don't necessarily
Ah. Here's what I'm having trouble with. I think they do roleplay, and I think they do bondage and kink and maybe some pain play, not to mention spontaneous games of naked hide and seek, but I just. don't. picture them as being into D/s. Maybe once or twice, but not enough to have persistent roles.
Which is really just the wordiest way I could possibly have rejected your question!
Ianto's past as a shoplifting drifter, TRUFAX?
*cough* I picked made in a vat, but actually I think the shoplifting thing was a very brief phase (meant to impress a juvenile delinquent boy whom he had a crush on) in his mid-teens, whereas the drifter bit came later.
Ianto's had sex with Yvonne Hartman, right? Right?
I miss my old imaginary canon, in which I believed that Ianto was practically a prodigy and Yvonne's special protege / more-or-less adopted son with incest-y vibes.
Um. Did I say that out loud?
Interesting poll!
My comment on the whole buried thing.... my personal theory is that he probably died once, MAYBE twice, but the pressure of all that earth and the complete lack of any oxygen kept him dead. Now if Grey had stuck him in a coffin yeah he would have died more, possibly half a dozen times before the patented Harkness gasp of air left him with no air in there :D But by just dumping him in the ground that probably saved him some trauma.
Now I'm sure when Torchwood dug him up, he probably didn't resuscitate immediately, and he probably was in a hellova lot of pain in that scene when they're like "What are you doing in the GROUND?" and he's going "Never mind just freeze me okay?" ;) He had to have broken ribs galore from all that weight on him...lucky thing they buried him in what became a park!
Oh and Doctor and Ianto? They'll probably bond over suits and talking about Jack's foibles. At least I hope so! I think they'd make a cute team, with Jack being kinda protective of Ianto while still kinda flirting a bit with the Doctor (though is it just me or did he flirt with Nine WAY more than Ten?), making Ianto jealous and possibly drag him off to a nice quiet corner of the TARDIS for a meeting. :D To which the Doctor would be like, "Gee they've been gone a while, should I go look for them" and Gwen would be like "No, I wouldn't recommend it."
My comment on the whole buried thing.... my personal theory is that he probably died once, MAYBE twice, but the pressure of all that earth and the complete lack of any oxygen kept him dead. Now if Grey had stuck him in a coffin yeah he would have died more, possibly half a dozen times before the patented Harkness gasp of air left him with no air in there :D But by just dumping him in the ground that probably saved him some trauma.
Now I'm sure when Torchwood dug him up, he probably didn't resuscitate immediately, and he probably was in a hellova lot of pain in that scene when they're like "What are you doing in the GROUND?" and he's going "Never mind just freeze me okay?" ;) He had to have broken ribs galore from all that weight on him...lucky thing they buried him in what became a park!
Oh and Doctor and Ianto? They'll probably bond over suits and talking about Jack's foibles. At least I hope so! I think they'd make a cute team, with Jack being kinda protective of Ianto while still kinda flirting a bit with the Doctor (though is it just me or did he flirt with Nine WAY more than Ten?), making Ianto jealous and possibly drag him off to a nice quiet corner of the TARDIS for a meeting. :D To which the Doctor would be like, "Gee they've been gone a while, should I go look for them" and Gwen would be like "No, I wouldn't recommend it."
I miss my old imaginary canon, in which I believed that Ianto was practically a prodigy and Yvonne's special protege / more-or-less adopted son with incest-y vibes.
Um. Did I say that out loud?
*dribbles*
Sorry, what? I went off to a special place there for a minute.
Um. Did I say that out loud?
*dribbles*
Sorry, what? I went off to a special place there for a minute.
there's plenty of evidence for Dom!Jack and not much for Dom!Ianto.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. I think there is plenty of work-related evidence of alpha-Jack, though at the same time, funnily enough, he's not a very good leader. We don't really have enough private information to go with other than the fact that Jack was very obviously the top in his relationship with John. But I'm switching top and Dom here and I don't really mean to. I don't really think there's a lot of evidence to support Jack being either Dom or sub anywhere, apart from the subby way he interacts with the Doctor. Whereas I think there is evidence to support Ianto as having quite a Dom personality, though I really would have to think about it and thinking about it takes me to a happy place and then I can't type anymore.
This is all just down to personality for me, Ianto is meticulous and careful, restrained and physically umimpulsive whereas Jack is adventurous, impulsive and often lets his heart or indeed his cock take over from his brain. Anyone who thinks those qualities in those two would make Ianto a good sub and Jack a good Dom is living a fantasy world of REALLY BIZARRE AND DANGEROUS BDSM. (The question is kind of in there because I'm interested to see if other people see those personality traits and translate them in the same way I do, but I'm afraid what I may be getting in the way of results is just a show of hands as to who really thinks about BDSM realistically and who doesn't.)
And I think you're right, I think they probably don't to any great extent play with D/s, which is why I worded it so carefully, and STILL some people are refusing to answer.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. I think there is plenty of work-related evidence of alpha-Jack, though at the same time, funnily enough, he's not a very good leader. We don't really have enough private information to go with other than the fact that Jack was very obviously the top in his relationship with John. But I'm switching top and Dom here and I don't really mean to. I don't really think there's a lot of evidence to support Jack being either Dom or sub anywhere, apart from the subby way he interacts with the Doctor. Whereas I think there is evidence to support Ianto as having quite a Dom personality, though I really would have to think about it and thinking about it takes me to a happy place and then I can't type anymore.
This is all just down to personality for me, Ianto is meticulous and careful, restrained and physically umimpulsive whereas Jack is adventurous, impulsive and often lets his heart or indeed his cock take over from his brain. Anyone who thinks those qualities in those two would make Ianto a good sub and Jack a good Dom is living a fantasy world of REALLY BIZARRE AND DANGEROUS BDSM. (The question is kind of in there because I'm interested to see if other people see those personality traits and translate them in the same way I do, but I'm afraid what I may be getting in the way of results is just a show of hands as to who really thinks about BDSM realistically and who doesn't.)
And I think you're right, I think they probably don't to any great extent play with D/s, which is why I worded it so carefully, and STILL some people are refusing to answer.
I think it was very easy to see Ianto as the submissive partner in S1, and I think a lot of people did. But then, they weren't really in a relationship as such. And then Fragments happened and that kind of changes your outlook on S1 Ianto as well because that guy catching the dinosaur with Jack didn't for even one second behave in any sort of submissive manner (even though Jack was in the position of power and had something Ianto desperately wanted).
I might do a random polling of fic after all at some point later on and see if there's a statistically significant difference in people writing Ianto as top/Dom/whatever after S1 as opposed to after S2.
I might do a random polling of fic after all at some point later on and see if there's a statistically significant difference in people writing Ianto as top/Dom/whatever after S1 as opposed to after S2.
Well, I love your meta, so if you do manage to type out a few more words about why I'm wrong wrong wrong, I will read eagerly.
I don't think Jack is a good leader at all in the professional sense, and he'd be a disaster if he tried to manage a scene with more than one sub at once, but... I guess to me he doesn't seem devoid of good Dom qualities because he does do that alpha thing which seems like it could apply to D/s.
And, haha, I don't see him as John's top. (Except maybe professionally, "I was the only one who could keep him under control"-- I mean, that's not even the same as "I was his commanding officer", is it?)
I don't really think there's a lot of evidence to support Jack being either Dom or sub anywhere, apart from the subby way he interacts with the Doctor.
In CJH, I take it as significant that Jack behaves rather passively with 1941!Jack. (The other thing I take as significant is that Jack's sense of guilt plays a major role in his emotional involvement with both the Doctor and 1941!Jack. That Jack may feel guilt toward Ianto actually convinces me more of the likelihood that Jack would fall for him than if the Cyberwoman ep had not happened at all.)
Am in agreement with you about Ianto's meticulousness, etc, making him *potentially* an excellent Dom. (Now I'm trying to remember bits of canon in which Ianto possibly behaves like he's Jack's top/Dom, and I've come to the realization that the power difference in their work relationship colors everything for me. E.g., at the end of Sleepers, when Ianto chases after Jack with the SUV mirror/antenna thingy in hand, I don't see it as alpha behavior on Ianto's part but merely as proof that Ianto is not completely cowed by the fact that Jack is his boss. Which, I don't know that that particularly supports or weakens my reading, but there it is.)
Jack is adventurous, impulsive...
I don't think Jack's bedroom persona is necessarily the same as the way he runs his life. (Also, btw, I see him as having more of a weakness re: getting swayed by his heart than re: getting swayed by his cock.)
what I may be getting in the way of results is just a show of hands as to who really thinks about BDSM realistically and who doesn't.
Well, I try to think about it realistically, but I know more from reading manuals than I do from my actual... dabbling. *g*
I suspect that young Jack received what he thinks of as a reasonably complete sexual education, which means that he approaches kink with a great appreciation for the hazards. I also believe that he's learned to take the lead in sex a lot because people in this era are so ignorant and inhibited. Jack & Ianto's sexual play probably has changed quite a bit over time; Jack put his top persona forward first, out of habit, but Ianto wasn't as naive or unimaginative as expected.
...I was just about to type that Jack soon learned to trust Ianto to take the lead, but then I remembered that they do have a lot of trust issues, and now my ideas are all scrambled again.
I don't think Jack is a good leader at all in the professional sense, and he'd be a disaster if he tried to manage a scene with more than one sub at once, but... I guess to me he doesn't seem devoid of good Dom qualities because he does do that alpha thing which seems like it could apply to D/s.
And, haha, I don't see him as John's top. (Except maybe professionally, "I was the only one who could keep him under control"-- I mean, that's not even the same as "I was his commanding officer", is it?)
I don't really think there's a lot of evidence to support Jack being either Dom or sub anywhere, apart from the subby way he interacts with the Doctor.
In CJH, I take it as significant that Jack behaves rather passively with 1941!Jack. (The other thing I take as significant is that Jack's sense of guilt plays a major role in his emotional involvement with both the Doctor and 1941!Jack. That Jack may feel guilt toward Ianto actually convinces me more of the likelihood that Jack would fall for him than if the Cyberwoman ep had not happened at all.)
Am in agreement with you about Ianto's meticulousness, etc, making him *potentially* an excellent Dom. (Now I'm trying to remember bits of canon in which Ianto possibly behaves like he's Jack's top/Dom, and I've come to the realization that the power difference in their work relationship colors everything for me. E.g., at the end of Sleepers, when Ianto chases after Jack with the SUV mirror/antenna thingy in hand, I don't see it as alpha behavior on Ianto's part but merely as proof that Ianto is not completely cowed by the fact that Jack is his boss. Which, I don't know that that particularly supports or weakens my reading, but there it is.)
Jack is adventurous, impulsive...
I don't think Jack's bedroom persona is necessarily the same as the way he runs his life. (Also, btw, I see him as having more of a weakness re: getting swayed by his heart than re: getting swayed by his cock.)
what I may be getting in the way of results is just a show of hands as to who really thinks about BDSM realistically and who doesn't.
Well, I try to think about it realistically, but I know more from reading manuals than I do from my actual... dabbling. *g*
I suspect that young Jack received what he thinks of as a reasonably complete sexual education, which means that he approaches kink with a great appreciation for the hazards. I also believe that he's learned to take the lead in sex a lot because people in this era are so ignorant and inhibited. Jack & Ianto's sexual play probably has changed quite a bit over time; Jack put his top persona forward first, out of habit, but Ianto wasn't as naive or unimaginative as expected.
...I was just about to type that Jack soon learned to trust Ianto to take the lead, but then I remembered that they do have a lot of trust issues, and now my ideas are all scrambled again.
Does "Captain." "Doctor." count?
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