tencrush | A little backstory...

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A little backstory...

I'm not "friends" with

rivier, by which I mean she's not on my flist, nor am I on hers. In fact, she once described me as follows: "I'll freely admit that I've frequently wanted to bludgeon her with a ton of silage for many of the things she's said." Cool. I happen to agree with many of her opinions about Torchwood and

who_anon, and at the same time, I probably disagree with her on many other things. But I know who she is and I know where to find her and should I have any problem with what she says about me, I could, if I so desired, contact her. Because I am an adult and I talk to people like they're adults, too.

I think

karaokegal has some hilariously batshit opinions, and she knows I think that. She knows I have an irrational love for Ianto Jones, and she probably thinks that makes me deranged. And yet we do, on occasion, talk to each other. Like big people. Weird, huh?

The reason I brought those two people up in a previous post, is because they, like me, have been targeted by

who_anon on many occasions. Now a conversation about somebody on

who_anon usually follows the same sort of lines. Witness, for example, a conversation about me posting the BBC complaint response from "Julie Gardener" a few days ago.

Julie Gardner responds to tencrush's complaint to the Beeb.

Lol, I love Julie even more now she gave tencrush's boo hoo
complaint all the attention it deserves.

Now, now, anon. Julie Gardner needs to personally grovel
at tencrush's feet, because she wrote . . . I mean she acted
. . . I mean she's in charge of . . . no wait what did she do again? :P
I sympathize with putting complaints on record, but how could
they expect a personal response?

Now that sort of conversation is pretty standard meme fare. Someone takes what I said out of context, and somehow concludes that I was angling for a "personal response" from Julie Gardner herself to my complaint. I wasn't, I merely mentioned Julie Gardener's name because it amused me to no end that the BBC complaint response claimed in a roundabout way that they had shown my complaint to Julie Gardner herself and she had responded, personally, to my specific complaint. Which, obviously, she hadn't, nor would I expect her to (and certainly not within 16 hours of me filling in a webform, dudes). I thought that bit of it was funny, and I quoted two lines from the response because I thought they were funny and contradicted each other and so I wanted to share them. I didn't mention my kids or what it was, specifically, that I complained about because it's nobody's business but my own. I shared a bit I thought was funny with you. More or less end of story. Nowhere did I say that I wanted the production team of Doctor Who to actually read or even care about my complaint, my children or anything I have to say about anything. I don't. Russell's Who just finally managed to get on my very last nerve so I felt like complaining. As is my right.

Anyway, that's how the conversation went on

who_anon. Then a comment was left about whether or not I was a responsible parent. More about that later. But, as you can see, the conversation started off by someone misinterpreting my sense of humour, and what it was I posted, and just went on from there with people commenting on that misinterpretation ad infinitum. Now I could have stepped in at that point and defended myself and the gist of what I wrote, but that would have involved me going unanon on the meme, and that's frowned upon as attention whoring trolling. Trust me, because I've done it. So the best thing to do in this sort of situation is just to leave it and wait for it to go away. Which is usually what I choose to do.

On this occasion, however, like I mentioned, my status as a responsible parent was commented upon and that's a touchy subject between me and the meme, and that made me flip out just a little bit. See, the thing about the meme is that personal insults about fans' personal lives are not allowed. So shit like this just gets deleted by the mods (Yeah, there's a more of this, less amusing and more personal shit on my hard drive, but this isn't a woe-is-me-and-the-mean-meme story, so I'll leave it there, I'm just illustrating a point I happen to have capped because I was awake):

In a way, I think it's a great shame that stuff like this, and like, say, comments where people threaten suicide over things that were said about them, gets screened or deleted and disappears from view. Because it makes it very easy for meme-apologists to claim that they're there for the picspams and the love and to pretend that the meme isn't what it is, which is a place to spew anonymous bile. No more, no less.

Now, I've been defriended in recent days by some people over the whole anonmeme thing, and frankly I'm upset about that, sure I am, because there really isn't anyone in this fandom that I dislike, in fact, most people I like quite a lot, whatever their opinions. But at the end of the day, as I said in the comments to my previous post on the subject, I do disapprove of the place, and I do think that if you participate there, you're condoning this sort of behaviour which can only be described as "cuntish" (Yep, that's probably a sexist word, yeah? But it's the most accurate word in my vocabulary, connotation-wise. No other word really covers it, sorry, so why don't you step past that for a moment, anons, and address the actual subject instead of whatever tidbit you can pick out to be morally indignant about, yeah?) And yes, I know not everyone there is like that, and I appreciate what it is that people like about being anon, I really do. But you're still condoning it. And you're lying when you say it's all hearts and flowers, so maybe you should stop doing that, really.

I say wanky shit all the time, I know I do, but I say it right here and anyone who has a problem with it knows where to find me. I said something unneccessarily mean about a fic a few weeks back and the author contacted me and called me on it. As is her right. I apologised because I was out of order. I don't claim to be nice to everyone all the time, but I don't hide from what I say, even when I say something stupid that I probably shouldn't have said because I'm in a bad mood. Some of the things anons say on the meme, they stem from pure cowardice and malice. It's hiding behind anonymity to spout hatred and insults and anyone who posts there and pretends that that doesn't happen and really it's a happy, fun place is fucking deluding themselves.

I hope the place dies a death. (It seems to be dying a European death already, have you noticed? There's only about 20-30 comments posted there while I'm awake and online. Maybe my American friends who are so active there in my nighttime will soon go the same way.) If it does, I hope I contributed in some small part to the death of the meme. It can't come soon enough. I'll never "unpretty" the place again, trust me, but for reals, guys, it can't really get any uglier anyway.

And no, obviously, this isn't friendslocked, like I said, I'd like to contribute in some small way to the place dying. Of course I read it, I claimed once (maybe twice? okay maybe three times) that I was going to stop reading it, and I did, for a time, but then gossip happens and I go right back. I'd love for there to be a pure whovian gossip comm. And by that I mean I wish

ohnowhodidnt had actual gossip. Why can't we do that, people? We should get on that. Not me, though. Somebody else.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

but that would have involved me going unanon on the meme, and that's frowned upon as attention whoring trolling. Trust me, because I've done it.

See, bb, "they" need a place to anonly slag people off (what the hell happened to flock and/or just being a bitch openly?), but there is no right of reply because that would be spoiling their fun. That and there's no way to have an actual conversation there because for all you know there's one grudgey person posting a lot to look like *~the community~* disapproves of you.

the picspams and the love

Ah, 5% of the meme!

I would totally be there to insult people, what else is it good for? Picspams don't need to be anon, love doesn't need to be anon (these days at least, though I suppose if you love Moff and your friends are batchippers then fair enough - oh wait, I used The Bullying Word, noes!). Anon is for being a cunt without anyone being able to call you on it and defriend you and whatnot.

I say wanky shit all the time, I know I do, but I say it right here and anyone who has a problem with it knows where to find me.

I find it easier to respect that, cos you own your comments and so on. Unlike wondering who exactly on my flist will break flock if I say someone looks like a horse. (I could get away with saying Freema does, I suspect.)

Hello, meme!

*waves at you*
*sexes you up*

I hope I am not being OPPRESSIVE with my recent unflocked posts about how beautiful Mary Tamm is. I would cry to think of anon out there, somewhere, weeping into her cornflakes of a morning.

No, no, you're being sexist by remarking on a woman's physical appearance. Also, Nos, you're a racist because you once talked to

kateorman about something or other.

OSHIT. I can only imagine how awful it was when I asked if Lalla actually has breasts. I love Mary for her brain and her awesome, honest!

I do think that you should have a right to respond if they comment on your personal life like that, it seems amazing that to go in unanon as such in that situation would be a problem. Then again that whole thing confuses me anyhow. I get the idea of a place to spread gossip about the actors or even spoilers maybe, but I don't get why they can't disagree with you openly on your journal.

I am also a little confused as to why you would be defriended by people due to complaining about DW?

'I am also a little confused as to why you would be defriended by people due to complaining about DW?'
Don't you know, if you don't agree with people about EVERYTHING you can't be friends *Ianto style eye roll* I swear it's like high school, all over again.

Agreed fandom is like high school. Only worse. It's like OMG I can't say what I'm thinking b/c other people might not like me.

It's like get over it people I dealt with this immaturity bull shit once, I'm nearing my 30's (in a couple years)and I really don't want to deal with it again.

'It's like get over it people I dealt with this immaturity bull shit once, I'm nearing my 30's (in a couple years)and I really don't want to deal with it again.'
Agreed.

Wording a rational dissenting opinion in someone's LJ, where they have the power of screen and delete and ban, takes actual thought and care. Whereas I would speculate that Mousie doesn't actually care a bit about the subject they are dumping hate on tencrush for, they just get off on the mentality of a good group shredding.

Interesting to think of it like that. I guess when I read some of those anon comments, it does occur to me that yes it is like school, but maybe also something about feeling intimidated to try and debate it openly or something, so just using general slagging off to feel better.

Maybe I'm being too generous. I think of the people mentioned, Tencrush is the most articulate, and also reasonable, open to others points of view. I don't feel that about some of the other journals, where I have tried to do the open discussion/disagreement, but I found the whole thing was really rather upsetting and not worth it, so now I avoid them. However I can see that as infuriating as some of those are to try and debate with, they may drive people to hide behind anonymity.

Hey if I don't agree with you, I tell you directly. You've told me directly as well. And our differences of opinions does not diminish my respect for you.

You have the guts to call it as you see it. You don't hide behind multiple or anon identities and you are willing to take heat for what you say.

That's what I don't get about the anon thing. I think its fine to disagree politely with someone as long as everybody is respectful. But to blast someone anonymously, seems cowardly. And to make accusations about someones conduct that isn't related to the issue being discussed is over the line IMHO.

If you posted that your children were thrown out of the house without shoes on in the dead of winter - then commenting about parenting would be appropriate. However, if as a parent you complain about programming on a TV station, then comments about your children or whether you are a good parent are totally inappropriate.

Makes me glad I've missed out on the fun of whoanon.

And I agree, a nice snarky little site with nothing but gossip would be nice.

If you posted that your children were thrown out of the house without shoes on in the dead of winter.
I do do that. For fun.

Oh, you be sooooo bad!!

It's called life lessons when you chuck them out on the street. The school of hard knocks. They'll thank you for it when they're older.

ITA, and I also believe that standing up and drawing public attention to this defamatory shit is absolutely right: it's the same reason I posted the other day. I take being branded a racist very seriously, as do you being branded a bad parent. I think these things transcend the usual volleys of name-calling, most of which are playground-level subjective - being called a troll or a paranoid stalker is so-what, being called a misogynist (in my case) is too laughably manifestly untrue to be worth a reaction.

The 'racist' or 'bad parent' tags, though, are insidious libel, they seep into the fabric of online folklore, even when the original accusers, when put on the spot, wriggle and admit they can't exactly prove it about the people they're libelling behind the anonymity, that it's just a kind of implication achieved with a 1+1=bullshit logic-leap.

And since your attempts to respond in the past have been trashed with the 'unprettying / attention whore' shout-down, and I've been banned wholesale for criticising the moderating there, then what should we do? Shut up, turn the other cheek and have our reputations trashed by name there, in profoundly offensive ways - and that defamation endorsed (if not encouraged) by the mods? Or speak out about it on our own journals?

So yep, I'm going to carry on making a record of anything like that, any time they aim their malice at me, for any reason. You can see from the immediate reaction your recent posts (and to a lesser extent mine) have had, how furious it makes at least some of the most malicious regulars there, so all the more reason to keep it up. Like calling them a shoal of cunts does - and like you, I don't have a problem with 'cunt' as a word, call me a cunt and I'll shrug that off along with troll or attention whore.

Which reminds me - why isn't the meme eating its own for using the word 'whore' as an insult? Isn't that an evil, sexist, disgusting thing to do? But you know, *they* think calling someone a slang term for female genitals is THE worst insult imaginable, which reveals a whole shoal of ingrained bias right there, so I'll just have to carry on doing it.

And I think you're right that the whole mess seems to be dying a slow death right now - it's interesting that even the broadcast of a new episode of DW, after months of nothing, generated significantly less discussion on the meme than the post-CoE fallout - or, indeed, than the usual wank about the meme's regular bogey wank subjects. I'm also muchly amused by the notion that if anyone either criticises the meme there, or speaks up for any public critics, then it can only be you or I posting anon there. I can't speak for you (!) but I know I'm not posting there - hell, why would I? Criticism of the collective, no matter how reasonable and calmly expressed, gets deleted hastily, for one thing. I also have all the space I need to post on my own blog, free from the mods' censorship and in a place where 'anon' is in effect banned from commenting. But since every time negative opinions are expressed, the paranoid mods stick IP lgging back on and all the little chickenshits run back into their hidey-holes and the whole shoal dies a coward's death for a few hours, then it's all looking good from where I stand.

I hope more people do have the courage to go public about what a steaming dung-heap of nasty hypocrisy the whole meme is, though I can understand why most who dislike the meme don't want the inevitable dogpile that incurs. But the more people do, the less easy it will be for anyone participating there to avert their eyes and pretend it's just really the nicest, bestest meme evar, and that any teeny-tiny little problems must lie only with freaks and, um, attention wh*r*s.

[eta, sorry, crazy typos! I've got a little viral something or other keeping me oiff work at the moment. High temperature seems to be frying my synapses...]

Edited 2009-11-24 17:24 (UTC)

Yeah, I posted a lulzy screencap, but far worse things have been said about me and my children, yet the meme as a collective still manages to fail to understand why I hold a grudge. But that's because they're really kind of retarded (Look! I'm adding ablist for luls! Funny me.)

I don't post there, no. In fact, I wish they'd turn IP reporting on RIGHT NOW (like, before I go to the gym), so I could go there right now and post nonanon so they can have my IP address on file. They're welcome to it, they're welcome to keep it, check it with RIPE to prove I'm in Amsterdam, whatever they want. I'm not their meme nanny, nor do I post links to myself, I really have better things to do with my time. I did notice it only took like 15 minutes for this post to show up there. But, you know, keep claiming you don't stalk people's LJs, dudes. I believe you.

They won't turn it on: I wish to fuck they would, but it would only act in our favour to prove the hate-vendetta is only flowing one way, so it's in the mod's interest not to catch herself out like that.

It might, for instance, catch stuff like this, where I'm having a Victor Meldrew moment, from this - "If a non-anon claims to write stuff on the meme, can we not say that they write the stuff they claimed on the meme? Like Rivier admitting trolling here: http://tencrush.livejournal.com/224712.html#cutid1 I don't care what the mods decide, but I think anons are confused."

This is reading / comprehension-fail so far off the scale I'm honestly boggled. So now, basically, anything I say, anywhere, is proof that the absolute opposite is true.

I suppose I should admire the desperation to find an excuse to launch open season on me over there. Good luck if they go for it: the more they prove their own blatant hypocrisy, the harder it is for anyone remotely reasonable to handwave it.

Yes, I hope to God they do stick IP on there. I'll even give them a heads-up - here's my IP address

81.108.211.36

Anyone who knows the slightest thing about me would know that I live in the Midlands, one town over from the one this IP lists. I have nothing to hide. Though how long before someone insists I must be using a proxy...

If I disagreed with you, I'd at least have the stones to tell you to your face (and I would never be insulting about it). I don't need no stinking anon comm.

Seconded. I just don't get the hate.

I'm sorry they dragged your parenting into this, even on a joke level. That would seem to be a bit beyond the ken, even for them.

I think my all-time fave moment was when I was compared to a Glenn Beck/Fox News type, which if anybody was really bothering to read my posts for two seconds they'd at least know to compare me to Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann.

I'm pretty sure this is just one person on the meme with a specific hate-on for me and the others usually just nod amusedly or dog-pile on for fun. I'd really like to know which one it is, mostly out of morbid curiosity.

And I appreciate your civility regarding both our completely opposite, as well as our not completely mutually exclusive views.

Oh, it wasn't just on a joke level, that just happens to be the screenshot I posted because the rest makes me want to punch things. And all that is obviously also coming from just the one person, but yeah, I'm also morbidly curious as to who that is, and I'm completely paranoid that it's someone actually on my f-list. But such is the nature of the internet, I guess.

Ah, you're just batshit, whereas I'm totally sane. Simple. ;)

"Everyone in the world is quite mad, except for me and thee. And sometimes I have my doubts about thee."

I say wanky shit all the time, I know I do, but I say it right here and anyone who has a problem with it knows where to find me.

And we all love you and respect you for it. It takes a bit of maturity to own up to your own opinions, and I tend to prefer people who can say what they think face-to-face (or, at least, with a screenname attached to what they say).

Hope I make sense... NaNo is eating my soul these days, and with it, my grammar and spelling, I think...

I say wanky shit all the time, I know I do, but I say it right here and anyone who has a problem with it knows where to find me.

That right there, is why I respect you. I may disagree with you at least half the time. But I either don't say anything because I don't know how to word it, or I say my piece and move on.

But you have never been one to hide in this fandom at all. And that is what makes you different in this fandom. (And I mean different in a good connotation here).

Nicole

Ugh, calling someone a bad parent is the lowest sort of blow. That really sucks.

I do disapprove of the place, and I do think that if you participate there, you're condoning this sort of behaviour which can only be described as "cuntish"

I think that's an unreasonable argument, because almost every community has some unacceptable behaviour going on and it's unfair to blame the entire membership for the behaviour of the worst members, especially when many of them do challenge that negative behaviour. I've followed the meme since it started (sometimes participating, mostly lurking) and it's basically a microcosm of LJ-based fandom, with all the good and bad that entails.

Maybe you and I are seeing a different set of responses then? Because very few comments have in any way attempted to challenge the recent shitstorms generated in response to

tencrush's or my own posts criticising the meme - and the occasional rebuke there is more often than not deleted by the mods. I linked to a couple of those deletions in my own blog, and there was no rationale behind them, or pretty much any of the others I logged.

All comms are a mix of participants, yes. Two forms of moderation are effective in any community: a set of rules, applied consistently by the moderators, and the 'unwritten rule' consensus of the majority of the active participants. As the

who_anon meme stands, the moderation is inconsistent, and the stalking, hatred and defamation practised by cerrtain anons - could be one, could be dozens - is largely ignored by other meme participants. Which suggests to me that most of the other participants are indifferent to the stalking and defaming: they don't care if it happens, or who gets trashed in the process.

And when anyonme who does complain is branded as a meme nanny, or deleted outright, then it's reasonable to conclude that the meme is operating exactly the way the mods, and every onging participant there, wants it to.

Maybe you and I are seeing a different set of responses then?

It would seem so, because I saw the following comments challenging attacks on

tencrush

Can we stop talking about her kid, please?

the bbc exists for the public's benefit, not to make a profit, like commercial television stations. it's in their charter. so technically it's their job to care when the public gives them feedback.

I can't bring myself to hate on her, I really can't.

If you tune in expecting a kid show, you might be pissed if a character stabs another in the face. You can't tell kids to go watch Supernatural

How about the cult of 'FFS, Just Don't Be A Gossipy Jerk To Other People And Stop Stalking Other People's LJs Just To Wank About Them, Because Who The Fuck Cares If You've Got a Grudge Against Them, I'd Rather Just Talk About The Show Than Hate On Random People Because Of Their Fannish Opinions', okay??

Dude, people should NOT have to hide every one of their thoughts under an flock just to avoid being wanked about and dissed (oh, and especially dissed for thing that have to do with their private lives... real classy, guys) on the meme! It's called being a decent human being and respecting other people... learn to do it.

THIS! She's throwing a fit because you all were talking about her kids and how good of a parent she is again. Its not cool. How stupid are you guys sometimes?

I'd just like to be somewhere where DECENT HUMAN BEINGS exist, not people who think that anyone who has an opinion is just wank and lulz, you immature worthless excuse for a fan

... Which I found in less than five minutes scanning one thread.

Indeed it would. You're quoting from two threads, not one, for a start. The first thread - your first four comments - has nine comments in response to the OP and each other, all variously jeering at Tencrush and explicitly critiquing her parenting decisions, including information about her children that I certainly didn't know. One of the responses you cite asks "can we not talk about her kid" - there's no response to that, modly or otherwise. Nor is it a suggestion that the criticism of Tencrush is in any way per se invalid, nor are any of the other comments you've quoted from that particular thread.

The other four comments you found came from the longer thread, a few posts below. The responses get pretty garbled in a mishmash of jeering at Tencrush and me, jointly and severally, but my rough count gives at least 35 attacking Tencrush, 20 or so raging against me, and upwards of 30 or so attacking the commenters criticising the meme, including the ones you quoted.

If that seems to indicate a tolerable balance to you, or you find that indicative of a meme where 'many' are challenging the hate and those challenges are being fairly debated, rather than deleted or dogpiled, then I can see that you would feel the meme is a good place in which to participate, and support for / participation in it doesn't reflect poorly on those who do. I don't see it that way myself, no.

You seem to be having difficulty in distinguishing between malicious comments, which are often (though not always) challenged, and any negative comments. Not every negative comment or criticism is hateful - calling you out for referring to meme-users as "a shoal of cunts", for instance, is perfectly sensible behaviour.

I have no such difficulty. I do suspect the dividing line between one person's negative but clearly not malicious comments, and another person's malice, is a subjective one that's going to vary, depending on whether you're the subject of that negativism / malice. I doubnt we're likely to reach common ground on that, since it is a subjective interpretation, and I was the target in question for a great deal of it.

On a more objective point, then, maybe you could explain to me why you're willing to assert that it's 'perfectly sensible behaviour' for the meme to eviscerate me for using 'cunt' as an insult, but for anons on the meme to refer to myself and Tencrush, repeatedly, as 'attention whores', with none of the anons using this term being censured for using a derogatory female slang word as an insult, by you, any other anon, or the moderators?

I think you do, because your own behaviour is at least as bad as the things you don't like seeing on the meme. I do, however, take your point about the difficulty in remaining objective about criticism aimed at oneself.

You refer to anons criticising you as "eviscerating", though I really can't say that the comments about you are any more hostile than the ones you made yourself on your journal. To put it bluntly, your attitude suggests that you can dish it out but you can't take it.

I suspect the reason "attention whores" gets less flak than "cunts" is that "attention whore" is widely used enough in fandom to have lost its sting for many people, whereas many women find the the use of a word for female genitalia as OMG WORST INSULT EVA! offensive. The offense is compounded by the way you continue to refer to meme users as "cunts", knowing full well that many of them find this offensive and misogynistic. Maybe you have good reasons for disagreeing about how offensive a word it is, maybe you don't, but to deliberately and provokatively refer to any group of people using a word you know they find offensive and then complain when they're offended by it is ridiculous.

You're free to assert that you know my own mind better than I do, in determining what concepts I do and don't have difficulty in grasping, though on the balance of probabilities I think it's unlikely that you actually do.

It's interesting that you've moved so quickly to replicate two of the meme's commonest weaknesses: steering a discussion from the impersonal (the question of whether it's 'unreasonable' to state that everyone who participates in the meme implicitly condones it) to the personal (whether it's 'reasonable' for the meme to lambast me for calling it a shoal of cunts'). And mis-interpretation, because at no point have I complained about the meme being offended by being described as 'cunts'. Indeed, I've said here and in my own blog that I welcome their offended comments, since they are tangible proof of the meme's hypocrisy. Nor did I suggest anywhere that the meme's 'eviscerating' of me was somehow worse than anything I've said about it in my own journal: why would you suggest that I did? To put it bluntly, your response here suggests that, like the meme, you're uncomfortable dealing with abstract concepts and verifiable substance, and happier when rebutting a debate point by falling back on a personal attack based on mis-representation of the facts.

Handwave or 'suspect' subjectively all you like, but the meme operates a double standard when it openly labels me a sexist and a misogynist because I use a female-derived slang term as an insult, but at the same time ignores and condones the widespread use of '[x term]-whore' as an insult (attention whore, grammar whore', etc). The meme rules state 'don't be sexist', but 'whore' is a sexist term that the meme collective 'you' are happy to use. Presumably, until someone criticising the meme uses it, at which point the 'sexist' slur will be deployed again, and the collective 'you' will once again choose to ignore the double standard.

As you've chosen to make this personal, let's be very clear about the personal element. I didn't launch some attack on the meme out of the blue. Some weeks ago, I queried a mod call there and, as a result of that discussion, was banned for harrassing the mods. The meme then, repeatedly, cited me by name in anon threads and branded me a troll and a racist (or at best, someone who absolutely equated negative comments about a TV show with racism). As I'm unable to respond there, I flagged the defamation in my own journal and responded with defamation of my own. Now, I understand that, while the meme loves its self-appointed role as the fandom police, scouring random journals in search of content to mock and deride, it is collectively far less happy when it is subjected to the same scrutiny and open mockery. But, to use your own terms, if the meme is going to dish it out to me, then I'll dish it back, every time. You apparently find this ridiculous of me, and that's your entitlement, just as I find it at the very least 'ridiculous', as well as offensive and hypocritical, for anyone to claim that the meme is, on the whole, a reasonable place whose members should not ever be collectively blamed when some of them behave offensively.

You are, however, the only person I've so far seen who's been willing to argue on behalf of the meme's collective reasonableness in a public post with your own lj-name attached. Responses in my own blog have been unilaterally hostile to the meme. Would you mind if - subject to

tencrush also concurring - I posted a link on my lj to your thread here? I think it would be interesting for people on my flist to see that my own very vehement dislike of the meme isn't a universal viewpoint.

I could respond you your points individually, but at this point I feel it would be a futile exercise. I'm bowing out now.

Thank you for the courtesy of asking my permission to link to this thread, which is appreciated. I would really rather prefer not - I don't want to have to deal with the flood of comments telling me how wrong I am this would likely produce, whether you want it to or not.

Thank you both for being civil to each other in my journal, it's much appreciated.

For the record, the 'can we not talk about her kid' comment was a reply to a comment Rivier mentioned in which somebody was righteously capslocking about my parental negligence and giving info about one of my kids. I didn't see it last night, but when I woke up this morning that comment was STILL THERE. Nobody had reported it for 10 hours, so I had to. It's kind of easy to conclude that asshole behaviour is condoned.

Heh, I do try my best to disguise the fact I really was raised by wolves.

I don't remember seeing that comment last night (although I was only skimming, so I can't guarantee it wasn't there) and it seems to be gone now. Quite a few comments seem to have been deleted now, which shows they aren't condoned, even if they're not removed as quickly as you'd like.

Well, I'm just a lurker, but I agree with you about all of it and I am sorry to hear about the personal comments.

The meme, or more likely, some contingent therein, seem to be very violently against complaints of any kind. "I don't like--" "ENTITLED!" I find the mindset puzzling and stupid, and I thought your objections about WoM were perfectly fair.

It seems to me to stem from willful ignorance or denial of the emotional involvement in the shows that are the fandom's object, which at least to me, seems to be the basis of all fannish dialogue in the first place, from squee to what they charmingly term "butthurt". I think it's both hypocritical and insane, 'cause really--hello, who's spending all this time on a fandom meme?

I have to say I admire rivier and you for taking on the face and nameless. I really hope that fighting these insufferable idiots is worth it. But I'm also keeping my fingers crossed that the meme will die a quiet and painful death, it's really polluting the internet. But looking at your prediction hit ratio, they are doomed already and rightly so.

As you can guess, I'm stalking your lj. I like to read your posts, because they are way more entertaining and funny than most things in this fandom. I agree with you more often than not and you made me laugh and high five at my screen countless times, so please keep 'em coming for my own selfish reasons. I've even downloaded and watched Misfits yesterday (totally random, but it's kind of sad that teen dramas are the only interesting things to watch nowadays, though I soo want a show where I'm the target audience, meep).

But wait, download for TBBT just finished, have to go.

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