tencrush | The Ballad of Russell T. Davies

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The Ballad of Russell T. Davies

I said yesterday how much this guy has ruined Who for me, and now Torchwood as well, and the thing is, I'm sure he didn't MEAN TO. But he did. How did he do that, though? Well, I've been thinking about that, and the thing is, that Russell and I just don't see eye to eye on relationships, and here's why.

There's two relationships that Russell has touted or described using the words "love" and/or "romance" and they are Doctor/Rose and Jack/Ianto. The thing about Jack/Ianto is that Russell didn't really have a very firm hand in the development and depiction of that relationship in Series One and Two of Torchwood, which makes it very interesting to see what happens to that relationship the moment that Russell DOES start to stir that particular pot in Series Three, and it's a very telling thing that happens. The relationship that we so desperately tried to fanwank away as having something of an equal footing about it, as being something of a partnership in S1 and 2 immediately, in Day One of S3, is very clearly depicted as a relationship between a STRONG and a WEAK partner. Ianto suddenly becomes Rose in S2 of Who, unsure of their position in the affections of the other, not even sure enough and confident enough to OUTRIGHT ASK what their position is, and reduced to slightly underhanded nagging about mortgages or the word "couple" in order to try and gauge what the other partner is thinking and how the other partner sees them. The dominant partner is dismissive, cold even, and the questioning party is left to shrug off that coldness and accept what's on offer because this is pretty much it, so take it or leave it. And they take it. Like a bitch.

We know how both of those relationships ended because they ended in exactly the same way, with tears and an unrequited "I love you" on the side of the weaker party. Now the thing about both of these relationships is, and I think that's what many people fail to understand, that Russell really - genuinely - finds this type of interaction romantic. This interaction between the doting, devoted (we as an audience might say "foolish") underdog and an uncommunicative, closed off stronger half, Russell really digs that shit. And when we, as an audience, say to Russell that we find what we see on screen unsatisfying, maybe because we like our romances to be between equals and not so weirdly skewed, Russell really doesn't get why. And so when we say we were missing something in Jack/Ianto, Russell assumes, because he thinks it was fucking romantic, that we think they didn't have enough sex, when that's precisely the opposite of what we were missing. He's not being dismissive, he just doesn't understand our point of view. At all. And he never will. This is IT for him, this is the epitome of romance. Look at Doctor/Jack, the exact mirror of Jack/Ianto, the relationship where Jack is the foolish devoted one and the Doctor is the one being cold and unappreciative and closed. We feel for Jack in that relationship and we hate the Doctor in that moment for brushing his devotion off so casually. (Not as much as I hate Jack for brushing off Ianto, but that's only because the Doctor at least has the decency not to fuck those he keeps at arm's length.) Hell, look at Gwen/Rhys even, again, a relationship where we side with the underdog Rhys and really, when we look at the relationship objectively, think Rhys deserves better than what Gwen gives him (her superhuman rewrite in S3 notwithstanding). I won't go so far as to psychoanalyse RTD, dudes, but let's face it, the lovestruck puppy and the strong silent type, that really is Rusty's bag, baby. It ain't mine. Unfortunately.

Yes, I am angry at RTD for what he gave us in S3 of Torchwood, but mostly, I'm angry at myself for getting my hopes up that Russell would ever be able to step away from this default relationship template and give me something that would satisfy me. He can't. This is the formula that Russell writes to and it's a formula that I, personally, don't like, because I like my romance with a smidgeon of equality. And so, inevitably, I will never like anything that Russell writes. It's never going to work between me and Russell and I've now resigned myself to that. So, yeah. That's me and Russell done. Forever.

On a side note, I believe the reason RTD is so adamant that Ianto is DEAD DEAD DEAD NEVER COMING BACK NO WAY NO HOW, and not toeing the standard keep-em-hooked sci-fi line of "anything can happen, folks!" is twofold. First, I think these are the protests of a man who has been defending this decision for a while now. This isn't the first time it's been questioned, I reckon it's been questioned internally, probably reasonably vehemently, because these are the words of a man who has been digging his big gay heels in for quite some time now, shouting his way out of a corner he's been pushed into once too often. And secondly, he's so adamant about this BECAUSE JACK IS NOT COMING BACK. Jack will exit the narrative in Who, and John's not telling us this because he's still contractually obligated to toe a party line, but mark my words, Jack will leave the story or turn into the face of Boe in Who, leaving us with ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to bring Ianto back. Because Ianto's function in the narrative has only ever been to be Jack's lover and tell us as an audience more about Jack as a person. Ianto's never really been upgraded to his-own-man status in Rusty's eyes, and with the exit of Jack, Ianto will cease to have a purpose in the story, whatever it may be. Those are my thoughts on that Ianto is dead as a doornail thing. Yeah, of course, Rusty's also saying it because he loves to piss off the fanbase, that's like a masochistic thing he's really into, but apart from that, those are my reasonings as to why he's saying that.

I wish I could stop thinking about fucking Torchwood already.

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These are words of wisdom and trufax. Look at QaF...same damn dynamic. [ETA: I wonder if there isn't some generational/gender-specific stuff going on here too, at least with RTD's queer relationships. Russell comes from a generation (mine) that reached sexual maturity in the 70s: a time when casual sex was ballyhooed as the be-all-end-all of pleasure, and a time when gay men were first attempting to be out and couple-y at the same time. So there was this tug-of-war between the sexxin' and the couplin'. It seems to me that modern generations of queer folk have resolved that issue, to some extent. But Russell is still stuck in the old dilemma. So when he writes a queer relationship, it expresses that tension.] His m/f relationships are desexualized, so this particular little issue doesn't come up.

Or maybe I'm just talking out my ass. I dunno.

Russell? Get some therapy, get over it, and give us a new story, eh?

Edited 2009-07-27 22:34 (UTC)

I started thinking about the similarities between J/I and D/R after hearing RTD answer a question about the accusations of homophobia - he said something like 'do your research.' Well, I know there's at least one knowledgeable LGBT fan who posted a well thought-out, well researched summary of why CoE looks bad from a Queer Studies point of view, so, I assumed he meant researching his past works.

Looking them over, he does seem to be writing the same relationship over and over again. So, now I'm thinking his writing is somewhat formulaic as well as cliched. :/

Here's a good summary/live transcript of the TW panel, including the Q&A:
http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a167392/live-doctor-who-panel-at-comic-con.html

I'm convinced he's going to kill off all the companions in Who. He's gathering them all together and will wipe them out. I include Jack in this because I think he's going to 'cure' Jack just so he can kill him too. He 's not going to leave Moffat any of his toys to play with

Just curious: do you think Russell Boy-o is doing this because he wants to mess both shows up so much that no one will watch them now that he's not associated with them? If he's not interested in DW/TW any more, then no one can be?

After all, he's fled the country and is now holed up in Sunny California 'writing' or whatever his euphemism is for 'fucking off'.

I usually don't deal in speculation of this sort, but when you came up with maybe GDL emphatically turned down Russell, the Kingmaker's, romantic advances and therefore had to die, die, die, my cynic juices started to leak out of my ears.

Bless you, THANK YOU for posting this. I've typed up 11 pages of thoughts on CoE and still couldn't get that nagging thing a proper name or feeling. THIS is it. The unequality in Day 1 had me looking at the screen like a puzzled puppy (head tilted and "WTF?" expression), then that unequality grew worse as the Days went on.

I even watched QAF but didn't link the partner aspects to those of TW and DW until this post. Thank you!!

My thoughts at the end of CoE were that Jack is so destroyed (I called it a character assassination), he'd rather just--stop for a thousand years. So I speculated that he was off to become the Face of Boe. AND, since Boe doesn't have a body, doesn't it makes sense that Jack would just...sit...and his body would atrophy and eventually shrivel away or something to that effect, leaving his memories inside his big head? It would take far more millennia than I care to think about for Jack's body to undergo that sort of change, but I do believe CoE was the beginning of his path to be the Face of Boe.

Thanks!

yeah...i read in an interview with rtd in afterelton today: "Davies strongly stated that while Captain Jack will be forever affected by the death, that storyline is pretty much wrapped up." which, lovely. that's just great. thanks.

Hey JB stole that idea from ME!

Right after the UK showing, I suggested that the TW they could sell to the S1 & S2 fans without controversey would have to be set either 10,000 years in the future or back when he first came to earth. Earlier - hell, Ianto's not even a twinkle in anyone's eye; 10,000 yrs ahead - well, I guess I could begrudingly allow him to have a new love interet, LOL.

The relationship that we so desperately tried to fanwank away as having something of an equal footing about it, as being something of a partnership in S1 and 2 immediately, in Day One of S3, is very clearly depicted as a relationship between a STRONG and a WEAK partner.

yup. it took me awhile to figure out WHY i was so devastated post COE (beyond the usual reasons), and then a few days ago, i figured out that not only was my favorite character dead, but that the relationship development we had been promised was actually 3 steps back. interestingly, my roommate watched COE and was confused as to why i was so affected by ianto's death, as he really didn't find him that interesting of a character, and found him to be clingy and needy, and jack to be so i'm so over this. which...honestly...is so much worse than when we had mere glimpses of intimacy with no real emotional resonance. and then...he dies. just...blech. left such a bad taste in my mouth. and, THAT is how rtd pretty much killed the fandom for me, b/c is this a jack that would even want ianto back?

"The relationship that we so desperately tried to fanwank away as having something of an equal footing about it, as being something of a partnership in S1 and 2 immediately, in Day One of S3, is very clearly depicted as a relationship between a STRONG and a WEAK partner."

It actually started with Ianto's monologue in "The Dead Line." I tried to "fanwank" that as understandable fear that Jack would be trapped in a coma, although people have pointed out that a bullet to the head would have fixed him immediately. But that clingy, unsure Ianto was not the man who seduced Jack with a stopwatch, initiated that kiss in "To the Last Man," or cut in to dance with Jack in "Something Borrowed." I saw very little of that man in CoE. RTD not only killed Ianto, he castrated him first.

Whatever happens, I hope John lands on his feet and finds other roles to make him as happy as Captain Jack has.

I'd joke that she'd name her baby girl Ianto... but then I'd have to throw something at the TV when it happened.

Well, if you take his interactions with the fans as any indication, he thinks he's Just That Awesome and that we should all be devoted to him. And not force him to talk about anything.

I think the only reason the Donna / Ten relationship was more even was because Donna was not interested in a romantic relationship. And RTD made sure she said that on a number of episodes, just so we wouldn't forget! (But you're right, she still didn't come to a happy end.)

Tencrush - THANK YOU so much for your post. It makes so much sense. I hadn't realized it (and I've never watched QAF so I didn't have that history). I've felt so horrible because of the way the Jack/Ianto relationship was portrayed in CoE. I felt really betrayed because we'd been told how there was progress, trust built, blah blah blah. I felt like CoE used 3+ days trying to convince me that Ianto really wasn't Jack's cup of tea after all... Then it killed Ianto and Jack fell apart. Huh? After the previous days, the person I was watching with (new to Torchwood) couldn't figure out why Jack was so upset. He thought the whole scene came across as too long, melodramatic, and overacted... and what was he supposed to think, really, given what came before on CoE? Heck, what was I supposed to think, having been looking forward to "progress"? I feel a bit better now, thanks to you, and well-armed for the future.

I believe Jack loved him, because I'm rejecting CoE as anything even in the same family as Torchwood.

Very interesting. That makes sense, sadly. I hated Jack and Ianto's relationship in COE. I really hope you're wrong about them getting rid of Jack for good in Who.

I think it's more that he *is* clingy and bitchy, but writes these dynamics because he wants to think that he's on the other side of the equation.

It's for sure that he expects fans to fit into the weaker role, lapping up whatever is thrown us and accepting whatever cold disdainful treatment he offers as all we "really" need. Odds are extremely good that this was how he felt when he was a fan.

So no wonder he just can't wrap his head around fandom now, with its ability to mobilize in nanoseconds and its general determination to stick its oar in even when its being told it's interrogating the text from the wrong perspective.

Russell assumes, because he thinks it was fucking romantic, that we think they didn't have enough sex

o my god, that MUST be it
he's... he's the fucking author of 'twilight'
that is not romance! it is disturbing and scary behaviour!

also... i don't want jack to come back
i no longer want any of them to come back

Well Ianto could easily be in it if JB's idea goes ahead. He has talked about making a few of these mini series, so TW through the ages as it were. Also the BBC do an awful lot of three ep things, which they show on Tues, Wed and Thurs, so I can imagine that 3 or 4 of those over a year would be very sellable. I would love a Victorian one, a Gerald and Harriet one, a Suzie team one, (so with Ianto, before Gwen) maybe the 1999 back story and they could easily do between S2 and CoE as well.

I know I've said this to you before, but I think I continue to love you. The more I think about this the more it's just, fuck yes that is exactly it. I'm trying to think of other things he's written -- like Casanova and Second Coming and QaF -- and... yeah. You're so right.

The worst part is, I do kinda like this sort of relationship... but not in the way RTD does it (I need to get some reciprocation out of my stoic, stronger partner eventually, preferably pre-death-of-the-other-character). :\

Jack will leave the story or turn into the face of Boe in Who, leaving us with ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to bring Ianto back.

Ianto/Face of Boe is the best 'ship in the whole Whoniverse and everyone who denies it obviously needs to go to some kind of... re-education camp or something! >:O

Why is it that everyone else can precisely explain the things that drove me mad about CoE when I can't even sort them out in my head? The whole 'relationship' aspect felt so wrong, especially when compared to S2, but I couldn't quite put it into words. You have, so thankyou. I hated that for the most part Jack was so distant and dismissive of Ianto and that Ianto just took it! This was not what the fans had expected or what we thought we'd been promised. I felt cheated after waiting over a year to watch CoE. If RTD did a u-turn and brought Ianto and Jack back - or preferably if someone else took over Torchwood and brought them both back - then I would happily watch a 4th series, otherwise, Torchwood ended for me with series 2 because quite honestly, very little of CoE bore even the slightest resemblance to the Torchwood that captured my heart for the previous 2 series.

He 's not going to leave Moffat any of his toys to play with

That could be at Moffat's request.

Moffat wants a clean slate to start S5 to build his own who-universe. He's said he is not interested in old companions, families, enemies, monsters, etc... He wants to start his own mythology for S5 with his own characters. RTD has said in interviews that he promised to write the finale up to the point Moffat wants to start. I don't think he will kill off the companions though, well not all of them anyway.

JB was only on set for half a day (location, maybe he did some extra studio work) and he shares his screentime with Midshipman Frame (Russell Tovey), I don't think there will be enough time to have an entire sub-plot dedicated to him.

Moffat also wants nothing to do with the spin-offs so cross-overs or even coordinating the storylines would no longer be possible, a bit impractical when all three series are supposed to evolve in the same universe.
Maybe CoE was written to be the end. Only now with the unexpected rating success they have a bit of a dilema.

Something's just occured to me:
I remember hearing things along the lines of Gwen/Jack being the ship they were trying to sail during the early production, which RTD was more involved in. Then there was massive amounts of chemistry between Kai/Eve and Gareth/John, and the fans had largely rallied around Gwen/Rhys and Jack/Ianto, and so, while RTD was busy with Who and SJA, he sort of half-heartedly gave his approval for not!dead Rhys and the Jack/Ianto kiss at the end so that he could focus on other things. It's much easier to sell half-assed but fan-approved stuff than it is to sell three-quarters-assed and fan-disapproved stuff.

The thing is, I think he always thought Gwen/Jack would be better. And from what we see in CoE... Ianto acts exactly like Gwen would in a relationship with Jack. He asks for him to tell her things. He pushes for personal information. And then Jack acts like he did to Gwen at times in the first season: "you can't possibly understand, for I am full of man!pain (that is also immortal and sort of alien)". And then Ianto kept trying the same tactic over and over again, which was out of character for him, but perfectly in keeping with Gwen's.

And then RTD goes on about how Ianto is Jack's conscious- his moral center anyone- during the extras? I could never buy Gwen actually being the moral center, but I could buy Jack thinking she was, if only because her normal person fucked up shit was less impressive than everyone else big damn hero(ish) fucked up shit. My whole thing with Jack/Ianto is that we kept getting glimpses that they were fucked up in similar ways. They both had the tendancy to obsessively love people who were beyond their reach. They could lie out their asses and you couldn't tell whether they were covering up something big or just making conversation. You sort of got the impression that Ianto had, if not as many things to hide as Jack, then that you'd have to work harder to find them out (read: he'd make Jack work harder to figure them out).

And suddenly the relationship became completely uneven and a bit clingy, and I can't help but feeling that we got Gwack.

Jack's going to be sharing screentime with Midshipman Frame, huh? Gee, I'm sure there will be plenty of time for flirting from Jack and maybe one more "Allons-y, Alonzo" for the Doctor. Can't wait.

I read that article.

'Davies strongly stated that while Captain Jack will be forever affected by the death, that storyline is pretty much wrapped up.'

Oh, it must be nice to live in RTD-land where that statement makes sense. Does that mean Jack will start drinking tea instead of coffee or will he just wear nice suits? Better yet, Gwen names her baby girl Ianto.

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The Ballad of Russell T. Davies

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