tencrush: (jackanto subtext)
tencrush ([personal profile] tencrush) wrote2008-07-17 05:53 pm

In which I tl;dr about Torchwood again. About bloody time, too.

So... it transpires that James Moran wrote the BBCA Captain's Blogs. Interesting. And when I say "interesting", I mean, of course, "weird". I have in the past accused the blogs of having been written by a gushing demented 15-year-old fangirl. So, either James Moran is secretly a gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl, or James Moran has cynically pandered to the gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl in all of us. I mean, it's either one or the other, right? I WISH I COULD TALK TO JAMES MORAN RIGHT NOW, SERIOUSLY.

My problem with the Captain's Blogs, which I've expressed on numerous occasions, is the way they are in many instances, completely at odds with what we've been shown on screen when it comes to the Jack/Ianto relationship. And on one level, it's kind of heartening to know that they're the product of the production team, because it means that all that shizzle that we've been talking about all these months, all those interpretations (because that's what they are, let's face it) we have of there being more to Jack/Ianto than handjobs in the hub, there being more depth to it than the shallow sexxings and innuendo we've been unambiguously shown, are supported by at least some sort of opinion by someone on the team somewhere, that yes, there is more to this relationship that the stuff they've chosen to show. It shows promise for the future, right? But, then again, there's the cynical aspect of the whole thing, that aspect that has got up a few people's noses. I guess the question really is, WERE THEY PANDERING TO US?

Well, there's a few possibilities, the first, of course being that James Moran just ships Jack and Ianto. James Moran, personally, is a fan of the relationship and wants to see it played out in the way the blogs play it out. Now, that possibility is all well and good, but if that's the case then it brings me back to the point I have made countless times before about Torchwood, which is that there is no-one in charge. Nobody is taking it upon themselves to make sure all the writers are on the same page when it comes to the interpersonal relationships on the show and it makes for a mess in the area of character continuity. It just doesn't work to let one writer play up Jack/Gwen, and the next Jack/Ianto completely randomly, because all it serves to do at the end of the day is make everybody look bad. Gwen looks like an insensitive slut, Jack looks like a fickle spacewhore and Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you). So, yeah, if James ships Jack/Ianto, good for him, a lot of us do, and if that's all it is, then that's fine, but somebody, somewhere, please bear in mind that evidently not all the writers do. And that's hella confusing for those of us watching.

Now the second, and I would hope more plausible, possibility is that James Moran was writing to some sort of brief from up above. But that brings a whole different can of worms to the table and they're just as unpleasant as the other worms (the other worms, up there, which I hadn't yet mentioned, but let's just assume there was a metaphor about worms involved somehow in the first possibility and move along, yeah?) Because that implies first of all that the powers that be were all too aware that they were showing the Jack/Ianto relationship, on screen, in a rather superficial light, because let's face it, of all the interactions we could have been shown between Jack and Ianto, we all agree that perhaps one or two sexual innuendoes should have been dropped in favour of even the vaguest hint that these two have some sort of emotional connection along the lines of the one the blog seems to be telling us they have. Now this brings up an interesting question, which is, when exactly were these blogs written? Because it could quite easily be the case that the blogs were written at a very late date, at a time when negative fan reaction was already starting to filter through, or at least at a time when positive reaction and the popularity of the Jack/Ianto relationship were becoming more clear to the production team, more clear, at least, than at the scripting and shooting stages of season 2. So was James Moran briefed to play catch-up in what the production team realised was a rather too ambiguous portrayal of a relationship the fanbase was rallying around? It's possible. And if so, yeah, you could call that pandering, but at least it's not cynical pandering, right? It's the kind of pandering that makes us fans feel kind of smug and good about ourselves because it tells us that someone's listening. And that promises great things for the future. Cool.

The other possibility though, the other worm in the can, if you will, is that Moran was briefed to add this layer to the relationship purely because the powers that be had no intention of going into it on screen. Now that's cynical pandering. That's the having your cake and eating it scenario and it's the one most people fear is the case. And that fear is reasonably justified, I feel. I mean, here's a team of writers and producers and whatnot who are perfectly happy to take Jack out of Torchwood, plonk him back into Who, rewind his character by a couple of years and turn him back into an omnisexual spaceslut who'll come onto anything with a pulse, despite having had him develop on Torchwood for two years into a man who seems, from what we can gather from the text, reasonably romantic, more than capable of monogamy and a person who places a huge emphasis on protecting those he loves. Not the kind of guy who just leaves you in the Hub with a bunch of Daleks, because hey, you guys can take care of yourselves, right? I'm taking the big gun, smoke me a kipper, helloooo there Sarah Jane. That sort of thing. These are the people we're dealing with here. The people who didn't bat an eyelid when the script said Owen, the guy who's been a doctor for at least five years that we know of, was 27 years old. The sort of people who from our fannish perspective, just don't seem to think twice about the bigger picture they're painting. Or at least once more (bonus points for the reference, peeps, just seeing if you're still paying attention, I realise this is all getting a bit tl;dr.) I hate to break it to the powers that be, but this last scenario is one that a lot of people wouldn't put past you in the slightest. I'm just sayin', you know?

What do I think? I think it's a little bit from columns A, B and C. I think the big problem Torchwood suffers from, and it's one I've had a bit of time to think about, is that they just don't quite know where they want to go with Jack. He was an omnisexual whore, but they've realised that that's just a bit too much of a whoreish thing for the romantic lead of a show to be(especially one that you've touted as such a sexually liberated icon, it gives the impression that sexual liberation=sluttiness and that looks bad and isn't what they meant). But giving him a romantic relationship that's anything more than casual kind of takes away his appeal as a 51st century happy-go-lucky player type, and it bogs him down as a character with nowhere to go. In making Jack our hero, they're kind of stuck now between a rock and a hard place. I sympathise, and I think it's a hard dilemma to resolve. What I do know, though, is that trying to approach him, and his relationship with Ianto, from all angles at once, trying to cover all the bases and please everyone, isn't the solution, and that's an approach a lot of people thought the Captain's Blogs were symptomatic of. I wasn't convinced that Rusty and co. were in the business of trying to please everyone, but, having seen Rose and Handy snog in the sunset in Journey's End, I'm no longer so sure about that one. There's having a cake, there's eating it, and then there's eating every pastry based snack in the whole damned shop.

[identity profile] karaokegal.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 07:17 pm (UTC)(link)
That'll always be the breaking point then. Jack is all about the Doctor. There's NOTHING in the J/I relationship that should give Ianto that much power. It might suck if you like Ianto, but there it is. I don't think canon J/G would be essentially different, but they might schmoop it over to keep Jack from being shown as being that much of a bastard to a woman, but it would be far more emotionally honest.

Even if he was only in charge since 2000, I'm still convinced that Jack has been fucking his way through TW employees from the minute he first got down with Emily and Alice and it's never been any kind of relationship that could distract him from his primary objective: The Doctor.





[identity profile] karaokegal.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 07:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Do you see the Doctor as still being Jack's primary objective, though, even now, post JE?

Not a doubt in my mind.

Now and forever. The fact that the Doctor broke his heart doesn't change that. Did you hear his voice when he said "I found my Doctor." (Ianto obviously did because he went into possessive/whiny mode.) The minute he had a working wrist-strap where did he go? (Yes, I've heard the whole...well, he knew they could take care of themselves...no he didn't.)

What was Jack's most "Old Jack" moment in the Finale?

Yeah, babe. All About THE DOCTOR. Now and forever, until his Doctor comes back and it's just for him.

[identity profile] offer-of-hope.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Jack/Ianto, a relationship born of Torchwood

That is it exactly - thank you.

Re: Possessive Ianto....

(Anonymous) 2008-07-18 09:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes exactly, and the screen chemistry between GDL and JB is palpable, I still remember so well the first time I saw Ianto, in the first ep, and the look they exchanged with the little flirt about the suit. I thought two things, chemistry, and there's the UST. I don't think you can buy that sort of chemistry, it is a natural thing, combined with good acting of course in order to work. They have developed a way of being with each other in their body language which is very nice. It was even there a couple of times in DW.

Yes EM can be very shouty and irritating, so he then cranks it up, and their body language gets all gesticulating and then the eyes start. That's when panto comes in.

[identity profile] ceindreadh.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 09:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Not buying that one. Post-Fragments, can you really say that Ianto has suffered more than Owen or Tosh or (especially) JACK! and that this justifies his self-centered whininess in the course of the two series and especially his apparent need/desire to cling to Jack like a limpet and obvious fear of any and all relationships Jack has had or will have that are not him?

Let's see. Owen watched the love of his life succumb to an illness, did everything he could to save her, only to have her die. Ianto watched the love of his life succumb to fatal injuries, did everything he could to save her only to see her die.
Owen watched as a woman he loved flew off into the Rift rather than stay and make a go of their relationship. Ianto watched as the man he loved (?) flew off on the TARDIS rather than stay with him.
Owen was beaten up by a Weevil (although he did voluntarily step into the cage). Ianto was beaten up by cannibals. I will concede that Owen has been shot more times than Ianto, but Ianto did have a gun put to his head and the trigger pulled.

I will also concede that Jack has suffered a lot over the years, but then he has had 160+ years to pack the suffering in. (one wonders if he has reached the 800+ dead colleagues total that Ianto has racked up so far)

Tosh, well she's got the whole thrown in UNIT custody for terrorist crimes deal, but then she did commit the crime (I don't care how motivated she was, she built a weapon, she made a working weapon and handed it over to a terrorist group) And yes she's had the whole 'dead girlfriend' experience - seems to be a Torchwood rite of passage. She too was assaulted by cannibals - but got away with less damage than Ianto. Does she whine? Well she's certainly turned on the waterworks often enough. (IIRC, even some of the writers have commented on how a 'good episode' tended to end with Tosh in tears)

And again, perhaps it's a matter of looking at the episodes through different eyes, but I do not see Ianto's actions or reactions as being 'whining'. Let's see, your boss/friend/part time shag, dissappears without warning and returns to tell you he found what he'd been looking for. I don't think it's whining to ask whether he's going to dissapear again.

[identity profile] karaokegal.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 09:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm putting down the rope. You can't convince me and vice versa. (And yes, it is whining, because if he knew Jack at all, he'd know that OF COURSE he's going to disappear again, and again and again.)

[identity profile] hamsterfur.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 10:40 pm (UTC)(link)
BBCA released the information that the Captain's Blogs were delivered to them by the Torchwood production team very early on, a statement that has been widely repeated in the fandom. I've seen it reposted here in this journal in comments before.

The sole thing pointing in the other direction is that one time, one writer said he didn't know who wrote them. Which doesn't suggest the Torchwood production doesn't write it, or that anyone is lying. Why would you expect everyone vaguely associated with Torchwood knows that kind of detail about how affiliate media is handled?

[identity profile] hamsterfur.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 11:08 pm (UTC)(link)
"I attempt to state as fact only those things I know to be true."

That's a very good approach, and I know what you mean about writing style or that's how you talk, I talk the same way alot and some of my friends give me a hard time. Of course you should discuss what you want, how you want, but stating assumptions as fact will get you a hard time from responders, you didn't seem very open to the bbc staffer who corrected some statments you made about production workings, or the bbca statement. They released the information about where the blogs came from early on, and I've seen their statement posted a million times. When has anyone "denied" they were written by the TW production? I remember JL (who wrote one episode and who you wouldn't assume has anything to do with that) saying didn't know one way or another and his assumption was they weren't. JM kept it a secret but that's not the same as saying no they definitely don't come from us.

Re: Possessive Ianto....

[identity profile] hamsterfur.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 11:14 pm (UTC)(link)
RTD wrote the storyarch for the season, so there will probably be more continuity. Which could be good or bad, please no sparkly flying Jesus Tinkerbells!

Re: Possessive Ianto....

[identity profile] hamsterfur.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 11:21 pm (UTC)(link)
And most boards you can't say that without being shouted down as a hater or Rosefen who's biased. I love Freema, I like Martha as written most of the time, but her lack of training and experience is evident.

They keep giving JB cheesy scenes and if they're supposed to be camp that's fine but often they're not and it's laughable. Burn can pull off cheesy lines because he's so good, Gareth can use his skills to alter the scene in ways you would not expect, bringing out comedy or darker meaning that wasn't in the script, so you don't notice the cheese. JB plays OTT emotion and it doesn't work.

[identity profile] mellacita.livejournal.com 2008-07-19 12:02 am (UTC)(link)
Do you have a link to the statement about the Captain's Blog from BBCA? If they commented on it officially, I never saw it. If they did, and I missed it while everyone else knew about it, then I am happy to call mea culpa.

[identity profile] foreverrhapsody.livejournal.com 2008-07-20 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
*curious* What was the answer to the 'what was Jack doing between leaving in LotTL and KKBB?' question? I think I missed that somewhere...

[identity profile] kaimu.livejournal.com 2008-07-20 07:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I think Jack walked into an empty hub (everyone was out chasing the blow fish, apparently for a few hours) and decided to check his e-mail and all the back-logged reports before going to look for the team.

Re: Possessive Ianto....

[identity profile] urnssadomen.livejournal.com 2008-07-27 06:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Well... Gwen did... in First Day. And Jack WAS interested; he touched his lip and mesmerized.

[identity profile] urnssadomen.livejournal.com 2008-07-27 06:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, as JG said, we are going to know a lot more about Ianto. That might shed light on a few things...

[identity profile] urnssadomen.livejournal.com 2008-07-27 07:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Honestly? I think they might break up anytime or might not, just like every other mainstream Drama which isn't focusing on relationships (CSI, Boston Legal suddenly came to mind).

One moment it seems that the lead couple(s) was going to be together forever; next moment, actor/actress was leaving the show, break up or be killed. By the end of the day, you realize the main focus of the show was not on those things, the writers didn't really care or they had to work with what they got.

Torchwood was all about action and so called real life. Gwen/Rhys being important wasn't b/c they were a man and a women, but they were a normal couple, there was a point to be made there, conflict, secrets, trust, commitment and what not. If my memory serves me right, most of the time, in the Rhys and Gwen related plot, they were fighting and arguing. And when they were not... oh, that was not b/c they are showing some couple time, noooo, that was b/c Gwen was a bloody women, a female lead. That's a completely different issue needs to be left for a complete different discussion (which probably will involve a lot of feminist ranting on my part).

I don't see any point to be made about Jack/Ianto, without making it look like a fanfic. As much as I personally love the idea, I prefer the mainstream drama remain mainstream, ie. be a sifi show, fight aliens, gun blazing, tech-babbling, not a soap.

They were dating/shagging, whatever people liked to call it. There was no conflict, no secrets, no trust issues. The only obstacle named Lisa, was long gone. Ianto moved on; he said so in season 1. Issue was over. There is nothing to talk about anymore. As good as the idea of fluff is, it's wasting the air time. Granted, there could be a few more scenes to show the dinamic between Jack and Ianto, but only a few. Pity, but I no longer care.

Too much Jack and Ianto will only give me the feeling of the writer was being a fangirl, which was exactly the feeling I got when I was reading the blog. If I remembered correctly, that was your point, Moran was fanwenking us, especially people in US. (I'm replying from my e-mail, so I might came off topic or not make sense at all). As much as I like that idea, my better judgement tells me otherwise.

I guess my point is: if you prefer to stay within the cannon plot ie the TV, there is no point to read the blog. It's just the sort of things happens, when BBC thinks either Americans are stupid or all made of fangirls. Guess what? Real fangirls can write much better blogs/fics. So Moran, keep your day job.

Ok, at this point I completely forgot what was your post about... So take it as random thoughts, I just felt like babbling and I like your turf.

Re: Possessive Ianto....

[identity profile] ceindreadh.livejournal.com 2008-07-27 08:18 pm (UTC)(link)
And Jack WAS interested; he touched his lip and mesmerized.

Probably just wondering what her lip gloss would taste like on Ianto ;-)

Seriously though, I didn't take that as Jack being interested, more surprized.

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