tencrush: (jackanto subtext)
tencrush ([personal profile] tencrush) wrote2008-07-17 05:53 pm

In which I tl;dr about Torchwood again. About bloody time, too.

So... it transpires that James Moran wrote the BBCA Captain's Blogs. Interesting. And when I say "interesting", I mean, of course, "weird". I have in the past accused the blogs of having been written by a gushing demented 15-year-old fangirl. So, either James Moran is secretly a gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl, or James Moran has cynically pandered to the gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl in all of us. I mean, it's either one or the other, right? I WISH I COULD TALK TO JAMES MORAN RIGHT NOW, SERIOUSLY.

My problem with the Captain's Blogs, which I've expressed on numerous occasions, is the way they are in many instances, completely at odds with what we've been shown on screen when it comes to the Jack/Ianto relationship. And on one level, it's kind of heartening to know that they're the product of the production team, because it means that all that shizzle that we've been talking about all these months, all those interpretations (because that's what they are, let's face it) we have of there being more to Jack/Ianto than handjobs in the hub, there being more depth to it than the shallow sexxings and innuendo we've been unambiguously shown, are supported by at least some sort of opinion by someone on the team somewhere, that yes, there is more to this relationship that the stuff they've chosen to show. It shows promise for the future, right? But, then again, there's the cynical aspect of the whole thing, that aspect that has got up a few people's noses. I guess the question really is, WERE THEY PANDERING TO US?

Well, there's a few possibilities, the first, of course being that James Moran just ships Jack and Ianto. James Moran, personally, is a fan of the relationship and wants to see it played out in the way the blogs play it out. Now, that possibility is all well and good, but if that's the case then it brings me back to the point I have made countless times before about Torchwood, which is that there is no-one in charge. Nobody is taking it upon themselves to make sure all the writers are on the same page when it comes to the interpersonal relationships on the show and it makes for a mess in the area of character continuity. It just doesn't work to let one writer play up Jack/Gwen, and the next Jack/Ianto completely randomly, because all it serves to do at the end of the day is make everybody look bad. Gwen looks like an insensitive slut, Jack looks like a fickle spacewhore and Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you). So, yeah, if James ships Jack/Ianto, good for him, a lot of us do, and if that's all it is, then that's fine, but somebody, somewhere, please bear in mind that evidently not all the writers do. And that's hella confusing for those of us watching.

Now the second, and I would hope more plausible, possibility is that James Moran was writing to some sort of brief from up above. But that brings a whole different can of worms to the table and they're just as unpleasant as the other worms (the other worms, up there, which I hadn't yet mentioned, but let's just assume there was a metaphor about worms involved somehow in the first possibility and move along, yeah?) Because that implies first of all that the powers that be were all too aware that they were showing the Jack/Ianto relationship, on screen, in a rather superficial light, because let's face it, of all the interactions we could have been shown between Jack and Ianto, we all agree that perhaps one or two sexual innuendoes should have been dropped in favour of even the vaguest hint that these two have some sort of emotional connection along the lines of the one the blog seems to be telling us they have. Now this brings up an interesting question, which is, when exactly were these blogs written? Because it could quite easily be the case that the blogs were written at a very late date, at a time when negative fan reaction was already starting to filter through, or at least at a time when positive reaction and the popularity of the Jack/Ianto relationship were becoming more clear to the production team, more clear, at least, than at the scripting and shooting stages of season 2. So was James Moran briefed to play catch-up in what the production team realised was a rather too ambiguous portrayal of a relationship the fanbase was rallying around? It's possible. And if so, yeah, you could call that pandering, but at least it's not cynical pandering, right? It's the kind of pandering that makes us fans feel kind of smug and good about ourselves because it tells us that someone's listening. And that promises great things for the future. Cool.

The other possibility though, the other worm in the can, if you will, is that Moran was briefed to add this layer to the relationship purely because the powers that be had no intention of going into it on screen. Now that's cynical pandering. That's the having your cake and eating it scenario and it's the one most people fear is the case. And that fear is reasonably justified, I feel. I mean, here's a team of writers and producers and whatnot who are perfectly happy to take Jack out of Torchwood, plonk him back into Who, rewind his character by a couple of years and turn him back into an omnisexual spaceslut who'll come onto anything with a pulse, despite having had him develop on Torchwood for two years into a man who seems, from what we can gather from the text, reasonably romantic, more than capable of monogamy and a person who places a huge emphasis on protecting those he loves. Not the kind of guy who just leaves you in the Hub with a bunch of Daleks, because hey, you guys can take care of yourselves, right? I'm taking the big gun, smoke me a kipper, helloooo there Sarah Jane. That sort of thing. These are the people we're dealing with here. The people who didn't bat an eyelid when the script said Owen, the guy who's been a doctor for at least five years that we know of, was 27 years old. The sort of people who from our fannish perspective, just don't seem to think twice about the bigger picture they're painting. Or at least once more (bonus points for the reference, peeps, just seeing if you're still paying attention, I realise this is all getting a bit tl;dr.) I hate to break it to the powers that be, but this last scenario is one that a lot of people wouldn't put past you in the slightest. I'm just sayin', you know?

What do I think? I think it's a little bit from columns A, B and C. I think the big problem Torchwood suffers from, and it's one I've had a bit of time to think about, is that they just don't quite know where they want to go with Jack. He was an omnisexual whore, but they've realised that that's just a bit too much of a whoreish thing for the romantic lead of a show to be(especially one that you've touted as such a sexually liberated icon, it gives the impression that sexual liberation=sluttiness and that looks bad and isn't what they meant). But giving him a romantic relationship that's anything more than casual kind of takes away his appeal as a 51st century happy-go-lucky player type, and it bogs him down as a character with nowhere to go. In making Jack our hero, they're kind of stuck now between a rock and a hard place. I sympathise, and I think it's a hard dilemma to resolve. What I do know, though, is that trying to approach him, and his relationship with Ianto, from all angles at once, trying to cover all the bases and please everyone, isn't the solution, and that's an approach a lot of people thought the Captain's Blogs were symptomatic of. I wasn't convinced that Rusty and co. were in the business of trying to please everyone, but, having seen Rose and Handy snog in the sunset in Journey's End, I'm no longer so sure about that one. There's having a cake, there's eating it, and then there's eating every pastry based snack in the whole damned shop.

[identity profile] kakareen.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 03:07 am (UTC)(link)
I'm glad someone thinks like I do. Why does everyone think love is like it is in romantic movies?
ext_1997: (Boy Smoke)

[identity profile] boji.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 03:11 am (UTC)(link)
You've forgotten one thing: they don't have a bible. Now apparently Bible's are no longer en vogue in Hollywood but in the land of palm trees and 22 episode series there are writers rooms. In Cardiff? Not so much because the BBC can't afford it. So all writers are freelance. They write independantly. And never the twain do meet. Which is where I think the problem really arises.

Secondly, no one has a clear vision on Torchwood's mission or what the 21st change is - aside from what we learn in 'Who' which is that aliens are out there and they planet-nap. So... the shows can't be separate in anyway shape or form.

To my mind Torchwood isn't really about specific relationships as opposed to the team and the aliens of the week, (and really it does seem to me as if the episodes are structured in much the same way as generic crime drama) - it's not about the relationships in terms of the scripts focus. That's the scant B plot or the subtext (unless Jack's history/background story involves the villain of the week)

In terms of Jack's characterisation as he was conceived by Moffatt they'd have to write someone who was openly polyamorous and omnisexual. Someone who cared about Ianto was in a relationship with Ianto but for whom exclusive wasn't a frame of reference. And that's a huge thing to do dramatically when you're actually writing something else - villain of the week.

Couple that with the fact that this show has no character continuity (it's barely inconceivable that the Owen we meet in series one has the backstory we learn about in Fragments) and a tiny example would be the fact that Gwen and Owen have an affair but they never have a conversation about that affair in the days after she gets engaged. There's nothing.

It's as if episodes exist in pocket universes. And I do think this is because: No bible & no writer's room.

Slightly tangential to this is I think the way viewers and fans react to telly. Viewers will watch Torchwood but probably won't have much of an on-line interaction with the show. And among fans there are layers there too. I don't think blogs and episodic commentary are as much staunch cannon as say webisodes are in other series. I think they're designed as an optional extra. But you can take it or leave it. And I think that's intentional.

Why? I don't think Torchwood was designed or approached as a soap. Character elements yes, but the focus is action-horror-comedy... I think.


[identity profile] crabby-lioness.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 03:14 am (UTC)(link)
Lack of experience in a long-term relationship? I covered this same point right after Something Borrowed aired here: http://crabby-lioness.livejournal.com/33219.html

[identity profile] kakareen.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 03:18 am (UTC)(link)
Naw, thats a poor excuse. *I* haven't been in a long-term relationship. I still know better.

[identity profile] bloodredroses1.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 03:27 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry to butt in. The way I see it Ianto tends to hold his real emotions inside & keep them private. I have the same tendency and when I suffered a similar emotional shock to EW the last thing I wanted was anyone to touch me, if they did I would have broken down & that was unacceptable. I think that Jack would know Ianto well enough at this point to know that Ianto wouldn't appreciate having his feelings on display like that - hence no big clinging, hugging weeping scene in EW.
But that just my opinion and is worth something only to me.

Morgan

[identity profile] bloodredroses1.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 03:35 am (UTC)(link)
Just curious why are you so anti-J/I?
off_coloratura: (Ianto fetish)

[personal profile] off_coloratura 2008-07-18 03:37 am (UTC)(link)
My god, that's a fab icon.

[identity profile] karaokegal.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 03:45 am (UTC)(link)
I've had issues with Ianto's whining starting with Cyberwoman and all the way through Countrycide, Greeks, CJH etc. If they'd kept things at the level of ambiguity of the first series and if I hadn't found the excesses of the fandom regarding the pairing so anti-ethical to the charcter of Jack as we were given him in Empty Child and the Doctor Dances.

IF the J/I shippers would accept a Jack who is still omni-sexual and poly-amorous, I'd be fine, and I'm not saying some of them won't, but a lot of them are rabid on the topic to the level of heterophobia, especially regarding even the possibility of Jack/Gwen.

Obviously J/I sex is canon. Fine. But anyone who tries to sell it to me as schmoopy-oopy twoo-wuv, even if that someone is James Moran, is asking for a big nasty fight, culminating for the time being with my shouting THREESOME, THREESOME,THREESOME.

[identity profile] halfspokenwords.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 04:13 am (UTC)(link)
I wouldn't mind some Jack/Ianto cuddling on the sofa, come to think of it...

But no, you're exactly right, on all counts. A shared scotch, maybe a quiet understated touch of hands-- that's all it would have taken. Even just standing shoulder-to-shoulder and looking out over the bay. There are several ways it could have been done. And quite frankly, these are things Jack and Ianto could be doing as friends. There wouldn't even be a terrible risk of over-defining the relationship, if indeed that's something that TPTB worry about.

These two relationships and how they are different and yet also the same?

Yes, please! That sort of parallel was introduced in Meat, after all, but was never satisfactorily carried though.

That juxtaposition is a large part of the problem, I agree.

It's why I also find fault with the 'it's a crime drama/sci-fi show!' rebuttal. Yes, it is, but we still get tons of insight into Gwen's personal life. Not so much into anyone else's. In season one, that wasn't so bad, because that 'real world' aspect of Gwen was what was supposed to make her special. But now that Jack, as the male lead, also has a personal life, it's very odd (and slightly suspicious) that his isn't featured too.

[identity profile] halfspokenwords.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 04:40 am (UTC)(link)
The Beth/Lisa parallels struck me as incredibly obvious, and even a line or two would have been enough to address it. After the episode aired, I actually wondered if maybe, in a sudden fit of continuity, Ianto's black humor was related to discomfort about the similarities. And, as you say, to his questioning whether or not it was appropriate to use the mind probe. Unfortunately, it just came across as Ianto acting kind of strange.

Sleeper could have been a big turning point for Ianto, actually. At the end, he was one of the four firing at Beth, with Gwen protesting. It's quite the role reversal from what we saw Cyberwoman. I wish that hadn't been ignored. Gwen can lecture the others all she wants about being human, but she's been on the other side too.

Full of weird and yet we love it anyway. Ah, Torchwood.

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 04:46 am (UTC)(link)
'I always found the Cyberman much scarier than the Daleks in the old days. The idea of being taken over and turned into something.'
Oh absolutely; that's why I wish the writers would have done *something* with the fact that Beth in Sleeper was going to become a monster like Lisa in Cyberwomen- they could have at least shown Ianto's reaction to Beth being killed.

'Please no more Daleks for a while Rusty/Stephen!'
I second that. They really need to find a new monster of the week.

[identity profile] crabby-lioness.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 05:06 am (UTC)(link)
I'm sorry if I offend you.

So you want Jack to be less realistic? I'm confused.

The way Jack has been consistently written in Torchwood is as someone who has put his emotional life on hold for decades, if not 140 years, while he waited (and pined) for the Doctor. After all that, he's not going to suddenly jump up and say, "Now I know what I want to do with my emotional life!" He's completely out of practicing with having an emotional life, let alone knowing what he wants to do with it. It seems only natural to me that he would want to feel his way around a bit first before making any big commitments. Give him time to get his "relationship" feet under him again.

[identity profile] tigercheetah.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 05:23 am (UTC)(link)
With the possibility of the Gwen/Rhys relationship getting even more attention in series 3, if we don't now get some serious attention given to the Jack/Ianto relationship after 2 years, it probably means that the writers never will. And if Julie Gardner's words about 'professional and personal sacrifices' being made apply to Gwen, then it could just spell the end of the Gwen/Rhys relationship, if Gwen's forced to choose between the two.

My biggest gripe with many Janto fans, is that while some of them are prefectly happy to see Jack have sexual tension with other people, if you put the words 'Ianto' and 'girlfriend' in the same sentence they get upset. It's as if it's prefectly acceptable for Jack to develop attachments to other people but not Ianto - Ianto must remain attcahed to Jack at all costs and not even glance at another potential love interest, particularly female ones.

Unless Jack's going to finally fall for Ianto big-time at some point, their relationship is going nowhere and the writers should allow Ianto to move on with his development.

[identity profile] crabby-lioness.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 05:24 am (UTC)(link)
To me, the writers seem to be doing a good job of portraying a man who has "issues" he wishes he didn't have and doesn't want to talk about.

[identity profile] crabby-lioness.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 05:33 am (UTC)(link)
My biggest gripe with many Janto fans, is that while some of them are prefectly happy to see Jack have sexual tension with other people, if you put the words 'Ianto' and 'girlfriend' in the same sentence they get upset.

I don't. By all accounts Ianto is more used to thinking girl=romance than he is thinking boy=romance.

Unless Jack's going to finally fall for Ianto big-time at some point, their relationship is going nowhere

I disagree. We have seen in the end of S1 and through most of S2 that their relationship brings them both greater confidence and emotional stability, and as of The Stolen Earth seems to be headed towards a greater level of exclusivity. At some future time they might decide they've reached the point of breaking up as all couples might, but nothing we've seen on screen is currently pointing in that direction.

[identity profile] crazytook.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 05:41 am (UTC)(link)
ok. lemme see. first of all, i agree with your final analysis. they don't really know where they want to go with jack. but i don't actually think that the problem is so much with where to go with jack as a romantic lead. the show has quite embraced the concept of the love triangle and seems content with going in that direction. it also allows him to have a serious relationship, while being all happy go lucky.

i also think a lot of people miss the fact that jack is a flirt. he flirts, and is generally harmless. now a days, in our quaint 21st century world, most relationships allow for flirting, and yes, even to the level jack flirts. (of course, my perception of what is allowed in the common relationship may be skewed by the fact that i'm an actor who goes to an insanely liberal new york city college...)

i actually don't think they're trying to please everyone, and i journey's end is no proof to me that they are. the bit with rose is actually the best solution to getting rose off the show. having her choose to stay in the parallel world is more permanent than sending her back there or killing her. (death is not always permanent in science fiction, especially in an episode featuring the five million times dead davros) i think the bit with rose was more of a function of solving a story telling problem more than an attempt to please everyone.

and if anything, i propose the theory that the mentions on the captain's blog are less pandering and more of an attempt to clarify the relationship between jack and ianto is based on more than sex. why bother? because the captain's blog is generally used to clear up the relationships on the show. look at how he talks about the other characters in the blog. i think it's a general clarification process because the relationships are dealt with in subtext.

and the show does show a deeper relationship between jack and ianto. it also shows that jack has deep feelings for gwen too. and that tosh is a daughter figure. and owen, well that's some kind of younger brother/son figure. maybe a nephew type. hard to tell.

you are right tho, there are mad character continuity problems in the show. mostly because the first season is...well...bad. i mean, there i said it. as much as i adore this show, the first season is generally a mess.

but all that aside, cause honestly, i really don't know what exactly i'm trying to say, i guess i'll return to the point at hand: i do agree that the show is not entirely sure where to go with jack. i don't agree that they are trying to please everyone. i do agree that the blogs read like something a squeeing 15 year old fan girl wrote between making out with signed photos of gareth david lloyd and john barrowman.

sorry that was rambling. i really don't know where to start with all this. i hope i made something resembling sense.

crazytook

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