tencrush: (jackanto subtext)
tencrush ([personal profile] tencrush) wrote2008-07-17 05:53 pm

In which I tl;dr about Torchwood again. About bloody time, too.

So... it transpires that James Moran wrote the BBCA Captain's Blogs. Interesting. And when I say "interesting", I mean, of course, "weird". I have in the past accused the blogs of having been written by a gushing demented 15-year-old fangirl. So, either James Moran is secretly a gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl, or James Moran has cynically pandered to the gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl in all of us. I mean, it's either one or the other, right? I WISH I COULD TALK TO JAMES MORAN RIGHT NOW, SERIOUSLY.

My problem with the Captain's Blogs, which I've expressed on numerous occasions, is the way they are in many instances, completely at odds with what we've been shown on screen when it comes to the Jack/Ianto relationship. And on one level, it's kind of heartening to know that they're the product of the production team, because it means that all that shizzle that we've been talking about all these months, all those interpretations (because that's what they are, let's face it) we have of there being more to Jack/Ianto than handjobs in the hub, there being more depth to it than the shallow sexxings and innuendo we've been unambiguously shown, are supported by at least some sort of opinion by someone on the team somewhere, that yes, there is more to this relationship that the stuff they've chosen to show. It shows promise for the future, right? But, then again, there's the cynical aspect of the whole thing, that aspect that has got up a few people's noses. I guess the question really is, WERE THEY PANDERING TO US?

Well, there's a few possibilities, the first, of course being that James Moran just ships Jack and Ianto. James Moran, personally, is a fan of the relationship and wants to see it played out in the way the blogs play it out. Now, that possibility is all well and good, but if that's the case then it brings me back to the point I have made countless times before about Torchwood, which is that there is no-one in charge. Nobody is taking it upon themselves to make sure all the writers are on the same page when it comes to the interpersonal relationships on the show and it makes for a mess in the area of character continuity. It just doesn't work to let one writer play up Jack/Gwen, and the next Jack/Ianto completely randomly, because all it serves to do at the end of the day is make everybody look bad. Gwen looks like an insensitive slut, Jack looks like a fickle spacewhore and Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you). So, yeah, if James ships Jack/Ianto, good for him, a lot of us do, and if that's all it is, then that's fine, but somebody, somewhere, please bear in mind that evidently not all the writers do. And that's hella confusing for those of us watching.

Now the second, and I would hope more plausible, possibility is that James Moran was writing to some sort of brief from up above. But that brings a whole different can of worms to the table and they're just as unpleasant as the other worms (the other worms, up there, which I hadn't yet mentioned, but let's just assume there was a metaphor about worms involved somehow in the first possibility and move along, yeah?) Because that implies first of all that the powers that be were all too aware that they were showing the Jack/Ianto relationship, on screen, in a rather superficial light, because let's face it, of all the interactions we could have been shown between Jack and Ianto, we all agree that perhaps one or two sexual innuendoes should have been dropped in favour of even the vaguest hint that these two have some sort of emotional connection along the lines of the one the blog seems to be telling us they have. Now this brings up an interesting question, which is, when exactly were these blogs written? Because it could quite easily be the case that the blogs were written at a very late date, at a time when negative fan reaction was already starting to filter through, or at least at a time when positive reaction and the popularity of the Jack/Ianto relationship were becoming more clear to the production team, more clear, at least, than at the scripting and shooting stages of season 2. So was James Moran briefed to play catch-up in what the production team realised was a rather too ambiguous portrayal of a relationship the fanbase was rallying around? It's possible. And if so, yeah, you could call that pandering, but at least it's not cynical pandering, right? It's the kind of pandering that makes us fans feel kind of smug and good about ourselves because it tells us that someone's listening. And that promises great things for the future. Cool.

The other possibility though, the other worm in the can, if you will, is that Moran was briefed to add this layer to the relationship purely because the powers that be had no intention of going into it on screen. Now that's cynical pandering. That's the having your cake and eating it scenario and it's the one most people fear is the case. And that fear is reasonably justified, I feel. I mean, here's a team of writers and producers and whatnot who are perfectly happy to take Jack out of Torchwood, plonk him back into Who, rewind his character by a couple of years and turn him back into an omnisexual spaceslut who'll come onto anything with a pulse, despite having had him develop on Torchwood for two years into a man who seems, from what we can gather from the text, reasonably romantic, more than capable of monogamy and a person who places a huge emphasis on protecting those he loves. Not the kind of guy who just leaves you in the Hub with a bunch of Daleks, because hey, you guys can take care of yourselves, right? I'm taking the big gun, smoke me a kipper, helloooo there Sarah Jane. That sort of thing. These are the people we're dealing with here. The people who didn't bat an eyelid when the script said Owen, the guy who's been a doctor for at least five years that we know of, was 27 years old. The sort of people who from our fannish perspective, just don't seem to think twice about the bigger picture they're painting. Or at least once more (bonus points for the reference, peeps, just seeing if you're still paying attention, I realise this is all getting a bit tl;dr.) I hate to break it to the powers that be, but this last scenario is one that a lot of people wouldn't put past you in the slightest. I'm just sayin', you know?

What do I think? I think it's a little bit from columns A, B and C. I think the big problem Torchwood suffers from, and it's one I've had a bit of time to think about, is that they just don't quite know where they want to go with Jack. He was an omnisexual whore, but they've realised that that's just a bit too much of a whoreish thing for the romantic lead of a show to be(especially one that you've touted as such a sexually liberated icon, it gives the impression that sexual liberation=sluttiness and that looks bad and isn't what they meant). But giving him a romantic relationship that's anything more than casual kind of takes away his appeal as a 51st century happy-go-lucky player type, and it bogs him down as a character with nowhere to go. In making Jack our hero, they're kind of stuck now between a rock and a hard place. I sympathise, and I think it's a hard dilemma to resolve. What I do know, though, is that trying to approach him, and his relationship with Ianto, from all angles at once, trying to cover all the bases and please everyone, isn't the solution, and that's an approach a lot of people thought the Captain's Blogs were symptomatic of. I wasn't convinced that Rusty and co. were in the business of trying to please everyone, but, having seen Rose and Handy snog in the sunset in Journey's End, I'm no longer so sure about that one. There's having a cake, there's eating it, and then there's eating every pastry based snack in the whole damned shop.

[identity profile] lefaym.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 09:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I've recently introduced a friend to Torchwood, and after watching all of S2 in one day, I asked her non-fandom influenced opinion of Jack/Ianto. She said she thought it was very sweet, she had the impression that they both passionate about each other, but that they weren't in a monogamous TWU WUV relationship. I was very careful not to push Jack/Ianto as my favourite ship while we were watching it-- I didn't offer any opinion on the pairing until after she'd watched every TW ep.

Obviously she's not the only person in the world, but I think that her impression of the ship lines up pretty well with what we've seen in the Captain's Blog. Personally, I don't see why so many people seem to think that either they must be in a very conventional relationship, because otherwise Jack is just using poor Woobie!Ianto for sex. I've not seen any evidence on the show that (a) Ianto is unhappy or feels "used", or (b) that they're in a conventional-style relationship. I don't think it's an either/or thing.

[identity profile] crabby-lioness.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 10:05 pm (UTC)(link)
OR it could be that they're telling a story about complicated grown-ups who have complicated emotional lives in 50 minutes a week with most of the time having to be taken up with other plots.

Yep. That would do it.

[identity profile] crabby-lioness.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Not only do the writers give Jack a relationship with Ianto, they also continue to give him sexual tension with other characters, most notibly Gwen and Captain John. Jack also continues to have a strong attachment to the Doctor.

And this is not like Real Life because....? Having a strong romantic attachment to one person is no guarantee you won't have feelings for someone else. It can (and quite often does) keep you from acting on those feelings, but the feelings themselves don't go away quickly.

[identity profile] crabby-lioness.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 10:13 pm (UTC)(link)
They can't do anything like CJH, or even his relationship with Estelle in Small Worlds, without making him seem like an insensitive opportunistic bastard.

OR like a centuries-old immortal.

Abso bloody lutely

(Anonymous) 2008-07-17 10:15 pm (UTC)(link)
As per my post above about British drama, it's the way they do it always when the story is about crime or sci fi, and not about relationships as the primary focus. Midsomer Murders has been going 13 years, and there have been about two scenes ever of the main character and his wife even cuddling, yet they are blatantly happy, and she features every episode. It's just not the main story, that's all.

[identity profile] kalliopeia.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 10:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Most of the things that get talked about in the blog are 'down time' things. I don't really see how it's all that inconsistent when most of what we see on the show itself is not down time. Gwen wouldn't know how to rein in an emotion if her life depended on it. Ianto is a master at it, and rarely "lets his hair down." Their respective dynamic with Jack reflects that, and it's something you see in Something Borrowed when he hastily pretends to be talking about something else when Owen comes in. And most of the Jack/Ianto scenes we have take place in quiet moments, or when they think they won't be disturbed. You're not going to see a ton of those in the show itself.

I generally see the blog as filling in downtime blank spots. And, since Gwen IS with someone else, and Jack IS in some kind of relationship with Ianto (and so presumably spends a considerable amount of that downtime with him), it stands to reason that the blog will reflect the Ianto/Jack thing more than the show.

I guess I just don't see how having one character with real connections to more than one other character is inconsistent. In fact, in my experience, it's kind of true to life.

[identity profile] halfspokenwords.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 10:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree. Even though most of this comment sounds like I am arguing, I do actually agree-- I tend to think that with Torchwood, any cohesiveness in characterization is accidental.

Personally, with the above caveat, I don't see the onscreen depiction of Jack/Ianto as too much of a problem, because we've seen primarily work-related interaction. But we know they do spend time together out of working hours-- they have to-- and to me that is where the Captain's Blog fits in.

In fact, to be honest, I tend to see the Jack/Ianto relationship much the same way the Captain's Blog describes-- yes, down to Jack being free to cling to Ianto for a few hours. I don't think that interpretation has been negated by anything we've shown onscreen, but unfortunately it hasn't truly been supported either.

I'd like very much to see it. I would have loved something after Out of the Rain, when instead Jack was ominous and oblivious. Or Exit Wounds, which had Gwen/Rhys and a complete absence of Jack and Ianto.

There are many hints as to what their relationship is or isn't. The date scene and Jack's nervousness, the dynamics of the flirting in Sleeper, the convo in TtLM, the fondness of the forehead-kiss in Adam, the "it's not like that, me and Jack" in DitD, the dance in SB... I like this list quite a bit, but in the grand scheme of things they're really just hints. We've gotten no real glimpse at what Jack and Ianto do when they're not onscreen, except have sex.

It wouldn't be so noticable or problematic if Gwen didn't get coupley, domestic scenes with Rhys. That's the problem, IMO. I'm glad Torchwood isn't just about the main characters romantic exploits, but... there are two main relationships, and when it comes to getting a look at the team's personal lives, it's only the same-sex couple that's getting ignored. It's why it seems like it's being presented as superificial.

I'm not sure whether that's what they were going for or not. Maybe it was, or maybe they just aren't willing to show the softer moments. It does make it very frustrating, as I'm sure you're aware.

You're right, too, that a great deal of the problem is that TPTB haven't decided what to do with Jack, but I think it's also they haven't figured out what to do with Ianto. We haven't even seen his flat! He got his own personal episode and we found out more about him in Gwen's wedding episode! In Fragments, they fleshed out his backstory primarily with things we already knew. So, yeah, one ambiguous person in a couple is fine, especially if it's a character like Jack. But two is kind of ridiculous.

I hope that made some sense! I admit to being a fan of Jack/Ianto, so I hope this doesn't sound too biased or skewed.

[identity profile] halfspokenwords.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 10:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes! This is what I was trying to say down below. I find the onscreen canon and the Captain's Blog completely compatible. I wish we saw some of that downtime onscreen, but that's a different complaint...

[identity profile] wicca-faith-fi.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 10:45 pm (UTC)(link)
you are son right - and so funny! i think I'll read this again when I am actually awake. But I love;

Gwen looks like an insensitive slut, Jack looks like a fickle spacewhore and Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you).

[identity profile] wicca-faith-fi.livejournal.com 2008-07-17 10:49 pm (UTC)(link)
i like your comment - i think it's very true. And I think that if the relationships were shown equally then maybe not so man Jack/Ianto fans or Ianto fans would have a problem with Gwen, because I like her wehn she is with Rhys and the FEW interactions with Ianto, and I even liked her as a mate with Jack in Adam and To The Last Man.
x

[identity profile] cirrocumulus.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 12:23 am (UTC)(link)
Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you)

This made me LOL entirely too hard.


I agree with all of what you said. I myself think it's probably mostly the result of James Moran being a Jack/Ianto fan and not so much the result of any devious planning from TPTGB. Mainly because of all the fans that watch the show, only a fairly small fraction probably read the BBCA Captain's Blogs at all, so using them to appease the fanbase with Jack/Ianto doesn't really make sense because it would still leave the sizeable portion of the fans that don't read the Blog wanting more Jack/Ianto. I myself am determined to be optimistic and hope for some more serious Jack/Ianto development on the show just because it's too painful to be cynical. And we've had no real indication either way about where they plan to direct the relationship now.

Also, on the Jack/Gwen front, I have the feeling that that's basically done after "Something Borrowed." "Adrift" had a lot of scenes where Jack and Gwen interacted but I didn't see ANY Jack/Gwen in it, so I think that's a good sign. I think at this point the writers have basically realized that there isn't much to get from pursuing that relationship.
Edited 2008-07-18 00:23 (UTC)

[identity profile] cirrocumulus.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 12:37 am (UTC)(link)
Jack, Massively Overwritten Character (who has been and done everything to the point where he's indistinguishable from anyone else)

Actually, if I may butt in, I was just thinkng recently about how I also think that Jack is a little underwritten. We get a lot of screentime of him running around doing action-type things, but in my opinion there is still so, so, so much about his personality we don't know. Like the fandom is still split about whether Jack is capable of being monogamous, and I think that's a pretty big part of a character's personality to be unsure about. I think that "Greeks Bearing Gifts" is a really interesting episode in terms of Jack's character, because I found the whole way that he dealt with Tosh's relationship with Killer!Lesbian!Alien to be really interesting and also his speech to Tosh at the end about how he doesn't know how to deal with normal people-managing situations. I for one would actually LIKE some episodes that focus more on Jack and his weird little mind, because I do think he actually has a really interesting personality to explore.

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 12:41 am (UTC)(link)
'but they do need a rough draft form AND a good proofreader AND somebody to tell them where to go when things get too weird.'
So what your saying is; they basically need a Beta? Which would be a great idea!

[identity profile] astuta.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 12:42 am (UTC)(link)
I'm personally a little tired of the fanwank. To me the captains blog is the by product of a writer hunted down by fangirls that just happens to be a shipper himself. And while I really like what they say, and enjoy them very much, I tend to discard them. Cannon should be the show itself, unless the producers/writers say otherwise.

Now, I think Jack is serious about his relationship with Ianto and while a lot of people think that Jack leaving in "The Stolen earth" made him an uncaring bastard, I just thought it was what he had to do.

I actually resent that people expect Jack to be there protecting them like Ianto and Gwen are helpless pups. They are Torchwood and they have to take care of themselves. Maybe is because I don't really watch DW and to me Daleks are not that "scary" and I think they should be able to fend for themselves, and if not die trying. The only thing that pissed me off is that Torchwood doesn't have any better guns that machine guns. That was just plain stupid.

And I don't think Jack was that slutty in DW (this season). He flirted with Sara Jane, yes, and made the comment about "the doctors" but nothing really came out of it. Not only that, but Ianto acting jealous and putting Jack in his place was hilarious.

I do have to agree that continuity is non-existent, specially with the characters relationships. Not only that, but the show is the Jack - Gwen show. They just don't use any other characters to lead the episodes. Even "From out of the Rain" was supposed to be Gwen investigation, but Eve was busy filming "Adrift", so they used Ianto instead. I personally don't see why they don't use him more, since he is full of opportunities as a character. To most people he is recognizable for funny one-liners and shagging Jack, which completely pissess me off. I rather have him single and developed than Jack chew toy.

[identity profile] kaimu.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 12:49 am (UTC)(link)
IAWTC

While Jack got a lot of screen time, there wasn't a real Jack-centric episode in series 2. Certainly nothing like CJH, and his only independent story-line was overshadowed by the death of Tosh and Owen.

I do hope he is more of the central focus in the next series, he is after all the lead. And maybe we would get to see him interacting more with Ianto, instead of dancing around it.

[identity profile] ceresi.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 12:57 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry if you've heard this before -- I only skimmed the comments -- but how on Earth are you getting nothing but "handjobs" and "shallow sexxings and innuendo" from the onscreen Jack/Ianto? Not just nothing but "unambiguously" nothing? The first J/I scene of the second series was the 'I came back for you', the second was the date scene, the third was the Sleeper banter, the fourth (that I can remember off the top of my head) was the TtLM kiss, the fifth was the Adam stuff, and so on.

Your problem with the BBCA blogs is based on the fact that they're not giving us enough meaningful J/I onscreen, and are somehow trying to make up for it by giving us it in the blog (and this is wrong of them, somewhow, you lost me in the middle there) but they ARE giving us the J/I, it's just, you know, subtle and grownup (unlike the 'romantic' Gwen/Jack, which is blatant and juvenile).

Basically, my face right now: wtf?

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 01:36 am (UTC)(link)
'To most people he is recognizable for funny one-liners and shagging Jack, which completely pissess me off. I rather have him single and developed than Jack chew toy.'
Yeah, that irritates me too. Ianto has so much potential as a character and I'm sure Gareth would do a great job with heavy emotional scenes (Adam and Fragments proved that to me). I really hope they use him more in series 3.

'I don't really watch DW and to me Daleks are not that 'scary'...'
The Old!Who Daleks are much scarier; now they use them so much as the evil of the week that they're just a joke. You'd think Ianto would have had a contingency plan; the Daleks were at Canary Wharf.

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 01:38 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, great point.

[identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 01:49 am (UTC)(link)
I agree with your comments. I also agree that the C's Blog is probably some of A, B, and C as described by tencrush. Although I tend to think it's less "following the fans" than A or C. I don't think they really care what the fans think. (at least RTD says he doesn't, right? Mr. Gay Agenda) Plus, it IS a scifi show, there's only so much time to show relationships, and they've decided to show much more of Gwen/Rhys than J/I, as you said.

I so totally agree about the inconsistency with Jack's character from TW to DW. That is just incredibly annoying.

[identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 01:52 am (UTC)(link)
That icon is to die for. Love it! I agree that Jack wasn't that flirtatious in DW S4.
Yes, it would be nice for Ianto's character to be use/developed more, but I still adore the witticisms and shagging Jack.

[identity profile] halfspokenwords.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 02:16 am (UTC)(link)
while a lot of people think that Jack leaving in "The Stolen earth" made him an uncaring bastard, I just thought it was what he had to do.

Plus, it was clearly what Gwen and Ianto wanted him to do. Ianto, in particular, possessed what is very likely the only information that could have convinced Jack to stay (because I refuse to believe that Jack would leave them if he knew the full extent of the danger) and he kept it to himself. They let him go.

The Daleks were at Canary Wharf, yes, and who was at Canary Wharf to stop them (and the Cybermen)? The Doctor. So far all that Ianto has reason to be wary of the Doctor, he also has reason to believe that he has much more of a chance of saving the world than they, Torchwood, do. So if Jack, who also has a good world-saving track record, can do more good at the Doctor's side than at Ianto and Gwen's, that's where he should be. Even if Ianto and Gwen have to die for it.

I like that it was Ianto and Gwen's choice.

I'm not sure why they couldn't have had better weapons, though. (And the timelock seems to me to be a nonsensical sort of defense program, but that's neither here nor there.)

I did think that Jack could have shown a bit more concern afterwards, when the Doctor contacted the Hub. He didn't even say hi.

[identity profile] tigress35.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 02:53 am (UTC)(link)
Word to everything. I had been hoping that the Captain's Blog hadn't been written by someone on the show, since there seemed to be so much inconsistency that increased with each entry.

[identity profile] hamsterfur.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 03:00 am (UTC)(link)
I'm glad you've addressed this issue. I think the Captain's Blogs can be horribly OOC personally. I enjoy your blogs but I notice you sometimes state your opinions as absolute fact (I remember you commenting several times about the authorship of the Captain's Blog, eg: "The captain's blog lies entirely outside the responsibility of the production team. It's not led or even vaguely guided by anyone involved in the actual making of the show" "It's the fact that it's not even vaguely guided by the production that bugs me" as though that was an on-the-record fact and not simply your opinion, alhough it wasn't an unreasonable assumption to make!), and I don't agree with that. You are entitled to say whatever you like on your own blog, of course! You can post screeds about how Jack is in love with Janet if you want, but your essays are widely read and respected in fandom, and maybe it would be more responsible not to phrase personal opinions and assumptions about elements of the production workings as factual statements unless there's some kind of source (like cast/production statements, interviews and things). This fandom is so awash with rumours and wrong info (if I hear one more person say, "didja hear Jack's not going to be in it next year?" I will scream) I just think it's real important to differentiate between fact and fan discussion.

[identity profile] hamsterfur.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 03:02 am (UTC)(link)
I always found the Cyberman much scarier than the Daleks in the old days. The idea of being taken over and turned into something. Daleks just shoot and kill you, and I didn't find that scary.

Please no more Daleks for a while Rusty/Stephen!

[identity profile] hamsterfur.livejournal.com 2008-07-18 03:03 am (UTC)(link)
I mean Steven!

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