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I was just fucking witcha...
Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!
Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.
So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.
And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.
Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.
Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.
So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.
And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.
Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.
no subject
I've been tearing my hair out over the whole idea that just because Jack is extremely open to sexual experiences of all sorts, and certainly enjoys talking about them, it must mean that he's out trolling for things with holes every other night. Frankly, I think that he's looking for belonging and love. Belonging and love do not have to mean a monogamous, forever relationship, though it seems clear that Jack can do that, if he needs to. I think that he actually can be an annoyingly needy person, in certain ways, which is why I really can't see him getting together with Gwen on a long-term basis. (They'd kill each other. A lot!) More to the point, though, I think that it's very important to him, at least at this point in his punishingly long life, to be a good man. I think that seeing what's worth saving, what's worth living for, is what keeps him sane through the most impossible of times, and you can't do that and be the sort of person who would knowingly harass a coworker, let alone a subordinate, without their express consent.
There is also the fact that Jack has for some time been patterning his behaviour off that of a World War II British officer, and that code of conduct expressly forbade any such abuse. Jack has clearly modified the code for acceptable contemporary use, of course, and has cheerfully ignored the strictures against homosexual acts all along, but he's kept the important stuff intact.
Given everything that we've seen of both of these characters, I'm not going to be able to view their relationship as one in which Jack is taking callous advantage of Ianto. It just doesn't fit. I'm really angry at the writers for not showing us critical moments anywhere but in the Captain's Blog on BBCA, such as the one you and I and so many others would have liked to see after 'Exit Wounds,' but given the way they have written Jack so far, and the way JB has portrayed him, I simply would not find such an interpretation of him credible at this point, even if the PTB wrote that in in series 3.
Thank you for this post, and for tolerating my rambling. I'll be looking for your poll on the subject. :)
Catherine
no subject
I wouldn't go so far as to say they haven't shown us *any* "critical moments." Jack's speech and the kiss following it in TtLM should definitely count as a critical moment. And I'd think the asking for a date scene in KKBB and the kiss in End of Days could also be considered one too. And Ianto's flashback in Fragments was, to me, an eight minute long critical "moment"! *g*
I do admit that I tend to be satisfied with subtle moments that perhaps many other people find too subtle to be satisfying, such as Jack's "Never" and the brief hug they share when Jack gets back in Exit Wounds. Or the way Jack shouted "Ianto!" when he was searching for Ianto in the rubble in Fragments. Or going way back to Cyberwoman, how Jack very obviously looks toward Ianto when Gwen asks him if he has ever loved anyone that much. But I also agree that the writers could give us a lot more. However, I also feel saying they haven't given us anything is a little unfair to them.
no subject
I couldn't agree with you more on all the examples you gave. I, too, am very happy with what they have given us, but am angry about the lack of moments at certain critical points in the series. (That would have been a better way to phrase it, in the first place.) I think that those missing vignettes give the viewers justifiable pause when contemplating Jack/Ianto, especially when they've given us such deep and meaningful moments elsewhere. On the other hand, nothing works better for series TV than stringing the viewers along with worry and speculation about the key relationships. Dammit! ;)
Catherine
no subject
no subject
I agree with you about the date in KKBB, on all counts. To me, its absence has made for some wonderful speculation and fic, but it'd also be lovely to see them on a date at some point, even if it's not that date.
I have to say that the fact that they haven't shown us everything has made for a very strong and active fandom. It seems as though the writers do understand the fans in many ways, including their desire to speculate and create around the series. Heck, even GDL's website allows the use of Torchwood images when fans are submitting fanart. I hope that will continue with the next series.
Catherine