tencrush | I was just fucking witcha...

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I was just fucking witcha...

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

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I agree with all of this, but certain points call to me particularly strongly:

- the jealousy/territory issues don't have to be about sex and love: there's a lot of mentorship stuff going on too (I actually thing Jack and Ianto are a lot alike and part of the dynamic is Ianto wanting/needing guidance about how to manage his own personal power and Jack being both someone who loves to take care of people and a bit of a narcissist).

This is very good. I hadn't seen the mentorship angle in this context, but it makes a hell of a lot of sense, to me. Also, I agree very strongly with you that Jack and Ianto are a lot alike, and that Ianto is struggling with how to manage his personal power. (I think that may be one reason why he's such a chameleon, at this point in his life.) He certainly has enough personal power to override Jack right from the beginning, and that seems to be what Jack craves in a partner/love interest. None of the others can do that with the quiet authority that Ianto exerts.

Also, Jack has been blurting stuff out to Ianto since their first encounter with the pterodactyl. I really loved that touch in 'Fragments.' Something about Ianto propelled Jack into revealing impossible things to him right from the start, and it had to be more than just his experience at Torchwood London. (Jack doesn't reveal these sorts of things to Gwen or anyone else on the team unless he has to.) I'd dearly love to see more on this, but it's a lovely little bit for the fans to chaw on, even if they don't elaborate on it.

- the interpretation of Ianto through a feminizing lens annoys the shit out of me -- I actually think Jack acts in a more feminine manner most of the time (he flirts like a woman; it's fascinating to me).

If I agreed any more strongly with you on this than I do, the sympathetic vibrations would rip the Internet apart.

- also just because Jack is shitty at communicating doesn't mean non-monogamy is bad -- I loathe interpretations of the show that are about how the solution to the Jack/Ianto situation is monogamy. For all we know they are being monogamous, but regardless, that doesn't seem to be the problem -- it's the information balance that's all screwed up.

This is so true! It looks very much as though Jack and Ianto are being monogamous on the show, but it sure as hell isn't going to solve anything. The information balance has always been the critical problem between Jack and everyone else on the team. If I had to work for him, I'd turn into a screaming harpy that would make Gwen look reserved. (Either that, or I'd spend a great deal of time kicking him in various painful places.) It certainly seems that Ianto has become more secure as series 2 progressed, and we were shown that he'd been let in on more of Jack's secrets. I just hope that this doesn't all get jossed in series 3. (If there really is going to be a series 3.)

Catherine

I'm not totally clear on what you or rm mean by "information balance," but I do think one characteristic that makes Ianto very compatible with Jack is his apparent ability to cope with having less than complete information. You mention Jack blurting out stuff to Ianto in Fragments, and what I found notable about that was not just Jack blurting out all that stuff, but Ianto taking it all in with barely a blink. He doesn't hound Jack about the wound that stopped bleeding abnormally fast, 51st century pheromones, or having dinasours for breakfast. Knowing Ianto, I feel he would have tucked those pieces of information away, to be called up later at a moment's notice if he found any other relevant info to tie them to. But in that moment, he seems satisfied with just focusing on the task at hand. In KKBB, while the others are grumbling about Jack never telling them anything, Ianto just points out that it's more fun when Jack's around. I think this was also in KKBB, but there's a scene somewhere where Jack asks Gwen to accept him for who he is now -- and I remember thinking that he'd never have to ask that of Ianto, because Ianto already does. Ianto just strikes me as being comfortable with whatever Jack decides to reveal to him without needing to ask for more, and ironically, that seems to cause Jack to relax and tell Ianto more than he tells anyone else.

My favourite part of that scene in KKBB is the end "Why are we helping him?" "He's a reminder of my past and I want him gone." It's the most open and forthcoming answer Jack's ever given anyone, and certainly the most honest answer he gives anyone in that particular episode (he fobs Gwen's questions off several times) and it's a very telling sign of how they are with each other, even in this pre-dating stage. Ianto doesn't push Jack for answers and Jack rewards that respect with honesty when Ianto DOES ask a question he really NEEDS to hear the answer to.

Oh, thank you for this! It's a point I've been trying to make to various people (mostly off the Internet) ever since we saw KKBB. Every now and then, Ianto will ask a question about which he's simply curious, but he accepts it when Jack doesn't want to answer it just then. I'm thinking especially of the boardroom scene in 'From Out of the Rain,' where Ianto asks Jack who sent him to investigate the Night Travellers. Ianto's quiet, gentle and open in his approach to Jack, not screaming and demanding. It's one of my favourite things about watching them together.

Catherine

What I mean by 'information balance' in this case is that Jack holds his knowledge very close and doesn't share easily. I'm not saying that there aren't things that he should keep to himself, but he is a pretty lousy communicator and doesn't trust people with things they probably should know, or at least, that would go a long way toward opening paths of communication that would be good for the team. Especially in season 1, his leadership style is the quintessential 'my way, or the highway' authoritarianism that just doesn't fly so much, these days. He's always telling people to just do as he says without explanation, and the trust diminishes over the season to the point where they all disobey/betray him over the course of the last two episodes.

You're quite right about the way that Ianto accepts Jack, both in 'Fragments' and throughout the series, in general. I noted and loved it in 'Fragments,' but I had come to expect that of Ianto, particularly after 'To the Last Man.' What I hadn't expected was for Jack to just let it slip that he was a time traveller from the 51st century. You're also right about the events in KKBB, and I agree very strongly that Jack would never have to ask Ianto to accept him for who he was, although he probably had to come pretty close to doing that somewhere after 'Cyberwoman,' at least in terms of earning Ianto's trust. (Obviously, this last would have to be mutual, and Ianto would have the lion's share of that work.)

What you say about Ianto's quiet acceptance prompting Jack to reveal more to him than he does anyone else is right on the money, I think. It's interesting watching Ianto trying to find his feet with Jack in 'Fragments.' He tries a number of ways of being (rentboy, hungry and desperate for work, stalker, pushy) before he settles on confident professional ready to get down to work and assert himself without asking Jack for anything in return. I really love that dynamic between them, and although I do think that Ianto gets whumped a lot in TW, it is done in such a way as to show his enormous strength of being. This is why I cannot see him as Jack's unwitting or unwilling sex toy.

Thank you for letting me ramble about this! I love discussing these two. :)

Catherine

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