I was just fucking witcha...

[tencrush]

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

Comments

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

Anyone watching Torchwood for the first time when Exit Wounds first aired, would have had no idea what-so-ever that Jack and Ianto were meant to be a couple. They'd have seen ex-lover Captain John for what he was - as well as Gwen/Rhys and Owen/Tosh - but definately not Jack/Ianto.

Of course, Jack and Ianto would have had no sex life at all had the writers decided to give Ianto the 'death' storyarc instead of Owen. The writers would have been forced to base their relationship post-Reset purely on friendship and affection.
I'm partially convinced that episodes like KKBB and Adam were written at a time when Ianto was going to be the one who was 'killed' instead of Owen and when the writers changed their minds, they were suddenly a little lost as to how to protray their relationship for the rest of the series.

[(Anonymous)]

Having said all I did above, I do agree about Exit Wounds, I think that may just be down to how many relationships Jack was involved in in that ep. Exes, siblings and colleagues. They could have had a few seconds though, I do agree with that.

Not sure about the Ianto death arc thing, it may be the opposite, having developed the relationship, too much potential angst if it were Ianto. Also just being cynical, but Ianto has a massive fan base, they must have realised that. Much as I loved Tosh, and had grown to like Owen, I think they really were the most expendable. The producers seem obsessed with Gwen, even if fans aren't, and also she has too many great characters (Rhys, PC Andy) around her.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree that Ianto's lack of direct attention in S2 has resulted in him being alive for S3. :) Phewwww!

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. Coming from the pov where I already knew Jack/Ianto were a couple, Exit Wounds had some very nice Jack/Ianto moments, namely every single exchange Ianto had with John, the intensity of his "What have you done with him (Jack)?" to Gray, and the "I thought we'd lost you" / "Never" exchange when Jack comes back. But you are right those things wouldn't have clued in a first-time viewer to the fact that J/I are a couple. However, aside from the fact that EW was a season finale, that's not unusal for a Torchwood episode. With judicious selection, you could parade maybe half of all TW episodes in front of an uninformed viewer and have that person never realize that Jack and Ianto are even sleeping together, much less that there could be something more between them. Which I guess is exactly what tencrush is complaining about!

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I think it just comes down to whether or not people like a degree of ambiguty when it comes to relationships in drama. Some people do, some people don't and they find it frustrating - frustrating to an unhealthy degree I agree. Ianto clearly has a strong attachment to Jack and Rhys clearly has strong feelings for Gwen but Jack's feelings for both Ianto and Gwen are less clear.

And people like Richard Stokes and Chris Chibnall really don't help matters when they say things like "Jack and Gwen are a love story with 17 complications" and that the relationship between Jack and Gwen is like the relationship between the Doctor and Rose. They rarely talk about the relationship between Jack and Ianto, except in passing, even during the De-Classifieds for both Adam and From Out of the Rain.

Now that S2 has come to an end, I agree that it's time to move on and look forward to S3, especially as I think their relationship will be resolved one way or the other during the next series. :)

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

And I kind of hope the relationship never gets "resolved" -- I kind of like it exactly the way it is now! Well, I wouldn't say no to a few "domestic" scenes like having Ianto come out of Jack's "hole" in the Hub after having spent the night there. *g* But I can live with the ambiguity if it means no big, messy, heart-wrenching breakups!