tencrush | I was just fucking witcha...

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I was just fucking witcha...

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

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I really think that what readings of Jack/Ianto as just a sex thing tend to forget is what Jack *hasn't* done.

I mean, he's flirted and pinched a few bottoms, but notice that he HASN'T gone after Gwen or anyone else in a major way. He's had a snog or two. Considering Jack's usual nature, for him to keep it in his pants that was says a lot for how he must feel for Ianto.

Plus, he sort of forgave the whole Cyberwoman thing. And for Jack, that was probably a big, big big deal.

I think Jack loved the Doctor and Rose equally and fervently, so at that point in canon, he believes that Rose died in Canary Wharf, and to forgive Ianto for harboring the enemy that killed ONE OF HIS BEST FRIENDS EVAR is a big, big deal.

Also? I know this is going to sound a bit silly since this is all Stuff Wot Is Made Up In Other People's Heads, but Jack is a 51st century guy and we're 21st century, so what True Love means to him might come off as strange to us. Especially since we're still heavily invested in traditions like marriage and raising kids and buying houses and whatnot.

I also think people who read it as just sex tend to be shortsighted on how tricky and subtle dominant/submissive type relationships can be. Or on who's dominant.

Because the thing is? I can completely believe that Ianto is sort of the invisible command. After all, he basically has a hand in every pie, knows where all the bodies are buried, and I just think sometimes he scoots aside and lets Jack lay down his thing because it keeps order. But I also think that if you needed something done right and done quickly within Torchwood, you'd go to Ianto first, not Jack.

Notice that Ianto was willing to shoot Owen to keep him from doing something spectacularly fucktarded with the rift machine. Ianto obviously is capable of laying down the law and enforcing it. And I think it's telling that Ianto WASN'T the last to stay by Jack's side when they all thought he was dead. Because Ianto probably realized that there were THINGS THAT NEEDED DOING.

Because Jack, also, I think, is kind of lazy as commanders go and only seeks to have full command of a situation when he's engaged or really worried or feels obligated.

I don't think that Jack would ever just use someone as a sextoy, because even though he does get around, notice that sex is just so *joyful* for him. It's not abusive, it's not using the person. Jack really does like and enjoy the people he chooses to be with, and he wants to please them. Notice he kept in touch with his ex-executioners (!). He wants them to be happy.

If his wandering nature comes from anything, I think it's a fear of what happens if he can't make his partners happy anymore, when things get too serious. So he tries to leave quietly and make someone else happy.

Think of him less as a slut and more of a sexual Father Christmas.

I agree with you, I don't think any of these things either. I'm just trying to explain why it bugs me that there is room in the story for people to think these things. These things should be made slightly more unambiguous when it comes to Jack.

These things should be made slightly more unambiguous when it comes to Jack.

Yeah, it should, and they should make it clear what's going on. But this is Torchwood, and we're lucky that they just don't devolve the show into a giant space orgy or something.

Ianto obviously is capable of laying down the law and enforcing it.

In that same ep when Ianto tells Gwen to 'get out now, that's an order' and Owen tried to countermand that it's Ianto Gwen obeys, not Owen.

Well, I mean, if Ianto gave *you* an order, wouldn't you obey? ;)

Well, I mean, if Ianto gave *you* an order, wouldn't you obey? ;)

Oh hell yeah!

Jack even defers to Ianto's opinions on things. In "Meat" he asks him if he really shows off (to which Ianto says he does, and Jack sort of shrugs and accepts it). In "To the Last Man", Ianto initiates the mega-kiss. In "Adrift" Ianto is the one getting Jack off. AND, Ianto is the one to go behind Jack's back and do his own thing in regards to telling Gwen, and it's allowed. Jack knows it's Ianto (he says as much to Gwen) but he never punishes him. From everything series 2 as shown us, at least from what I have seen, if there is a dominant one in the relationship... it's Ianto and not Jack!

In "To the Last Man", Ianto initiates the mega-kiss.

Is it just me or did it totally look like Ianto was thinking, "Jack could use some comfort" and perhaps Ianto was even maybe rewarding Jack for something? I think so.

Ianto is the one to go behind Jack's back and do his own thing in regards to telling Gwen, and it's allowed.

Yeah, I know. I wonder how much that's gone on! Sometimes I think Jack lets him do it because he knows which forms to fill out to make it official. :)

Also? I know this is going to sound a bit silly since this is all Stuff Wot Is Made Up In Other People's Heads, but Jack is a 51st century guy and we're 21st century, so what True Love means to him might come off as strange to us. Especially since we're still heavily invested in traditions like marriage and raising kids and buying houses and whatnot.

I agree with this vehemently. Jack is shown in TW as being relatively adjusted to his current environment but we get shown enough to be reminded once in a while that he's really, really not exactly "in tune" with everyone around him. His charming persona and ability to adapt have lessened the obvious differences but if you squint, it's still there.

And also I agree that Ianto is definitely a sort of stealth puppeteer rather than a victim. He knows and probably influences much more than anyone else realizes.

Edited 2008-05-13 22:54 (UTC)

His charming persona and ability to adapt have lessened the obvious differences but if you squint, it's still there.

Yeah, and I wish that they would remember this. Even though he's been on Earth in the 20th century a long time, a lot of what he does is just for show. I wish the show would explore his true values and how he views the 21st century from an outsider's point of view.

And also I agree that Ianto is definitely a sort of stealth puppeteer rather than a victim. He knows and probably influences much more than anyone else realizes.

He's a smooth operator indeed. And I think that's why Jack and Ianto work so well. They both have their dominant and submissive facets, but when it comes down to it, I honestly think that Ianto tops from the bottom most times.

I still think that Ianto might secretly be a double agent or something else, because notice how when he's not in sight of anyone in Meat, his kung fu gets like 10x stronger.

I still think that Ianto might secretly be a double agent or something else, because notice how when he's not in sight of anyone in Meat, his kung fu gets like 10x stronger.

Heh, Ianto doesn't get enough field action for me to make a proper analysis. Bring on more ninja skills for Yan, I say!

But now I have to go and re-watch Meat frame by frame to see if I missed any details. Damnit!

A sexual Father Christmas?
You are made of win. I think I love you.

Thanks! I'm glad it could make you happy :)

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