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I was just fucking witcha...
Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!
Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.
So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.
And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.
Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.
Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.
So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.
And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.
Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.
no subject
You aren't wrong to be annoyed by that. The thing is, why do people think that? There has been nothing at all in canon to imply that Jack is that kind of guy, or even that he ever was that kind of guy.
Seriously, in The Empty Child or any of his other Who eps he was certainly seen as flirty and fun and promiscuous but not as a user. He could have had Rose is a heartbeat (I'm convinced) but other than flirting with her he never really pushed it at all. He could have had Gwen, never went there. He was in the position of life or death pretty much over Tosh, never went there. All the indications are that while he flirted with Ianto the aggressor in the situation was Ianto, not Jack. If Small Worlds was their first sexual encounter we know for a fact that it was Ianto who initiated. If, as Gareth said he thinks, they were involved before Cyberwoman then from what we've seen it was also Ianto who inititated then as well. At the least he let Jack know he was interested.
I can't see anything in the writing to lead people to the idea that Jack is someone who would abuse his position. In fact, the only one Jack has been seen to have an actual sexual relationship with over both shows is Ianto. We also know about a five year relationship that he had with John. So yeah, he's admitted to plenty of casual encounters but so what? We've seen Owen, Tosh and Gwen all with multiple sexual partners. Only Ianto and Jack have had only each other.
The thing that gets me even more are the fanfic writers who write about Jack pretty much forcing Ianto into sex in the immediate aftermath of Cyberwoman because "you need this". Ok, that's not even harrassment. That's rape. And if someone truly believes that Jack Harkness is a rapist then I don't know what show they are watching because it's not the same one I'm watching.
no subject
I guess what that boils down to, for me, is that the problem is that there is NOT ENOUGH in canon to suggest that Jack is NOT that kind of guy, and the easiest way to fix that in canon would be to show that he's not that kind of guy within the confines of his relationship with Ianto, and they're not doing enough to show us that, apart from one line in TtLM. And that's where my anger comes from, from the fact that you could have gone to the loo during TtLM, missed that one line and come out of this show with that perception of Jack, as a guy who uses omnisexuality as an excuse to stick it in as many people as possible, intact. It's not good enough.
no subject
Whoa - I've never read any of that, and i'm damn glad I haven't, otherwise I'd probably throw things at the screen. That's seven shades of sideways :/
no subject
So many kinds of wrong.
I go in wanting a little H/C, and come out with Jack and Ianto all defiled.
no subject
there are so many kinds of wrong out there... *hides back under duvet, writes more fluff!*
no subject
Adam's little flourish of sexual violence with Ianto was enough to last me decades, thank you. O_____O
I'm with you.
*loves NotPsycho!Jack/Ianto*
no subject
See, I wrote a fic serial-killer!Ianto, but I made damn sure there was flashing lights and warnings and extra warnings because i know that it's probably not to everyone's taste... just as I'd assume people would warn for Mpeg, which makes me squick a thousand squicks!
And I'm still really a bit of a n00b in the whole fandom thing in general... you live and learn, eh? *lol*
no subject
*brings Twizzlers*
See, yes, it's all about the warnings. One fan's squick is another fan's pleasure, so they're both warning and advertisement.
no subject
so they're both warning and advertisement.
Oh yes... I've learnt that in the other fandoms i've been playing in (dear god, I feel so kinda wrong for some of them, but hey - it's all fun and games til someone loses an eye *lol*)
:D
no subject
So flirty and promiscuous, but never one to take advantage. I'm quite sure from what I see on screen that he could try gently with Ianto the day after Fragments to see whether he was reading things correctly, get a less than unequivocal reaction, and back down to flirt-only.