tencrush | How they killed my Janto, dudes.

Entry tags:

How they killed my Janto, dudes.

I'm still full of hate after Something Borrowed, and I'll attempt to explain why.

In Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, we were given a promising glimpse of Ianto-with-a-spine. He basically stated he wasn't interested in being Jack's part time office shag and wanted more, or no deal. Jack seemed to be au fait with this and looked to be pursuing the relationship. My little shipper heart went YAY, and that didn't really change, especially after To The Last Man, when I, along with everyone else in the world, pretty much saw what appeared to be a declaration of love from Jack. OMG WOW. Then... what the fuck happened?

I started to develop hate when Ianto said he and Jack 'dabbled'. While I could defend Jack's trying to hide the relationship based on what he said in Meat (he has an emotional investment, it makes you vulnerable, and he really shouldn't be forming EMOTIONAL bonds with his team, because it affects his abilities as their leader, yeah? Fine.), here, though, we suddenly have Ianto downplaying what I had assumed was an emotional attachment to Jack, and why? Dead Man Walking, again, shows Ianto on the defensive with regards to the relationship. "It's not like that", right, OK. Funnily enough, Ianto seems too unsure to expand and tell Owen what it IS, in fact, like. He's become almost apologetic, and why? Oh, roll on Something Borrowed, HERE'S WHY! He's IN LOVE. He's a lovesick puppy, thinking about wedding dresses and looking to settle down. If there's one thing we know about Ianto, you see, it's that he is wickedly loyal, faithful and, one would assume, MONOGAMOUS. Yet suddenly, since Adam, the relationship seems to have taken a turn into roleplaying toy-based sexamalympics. There's been no emotional connection since the kiss in TTLM. What bugs me is that Ianto is shown to be perfectly satisfied with this turn of events. It's almost like the Date Conversation never happened.

Now, I can buy that Jack is capable of loving more than one person. I can buy that Jack loves Gwen. I can even buy that Ianto is perfectly happy to know this and not care. That all makes perfect sense to me. What I can't buy is that Ianto has become such a lovesick boytoy, so impressed with Jack's avant garde sexual prowess, that he is happy to settle back into his role as office based shag, taking whatever nuggets of affection Jack sees fit too throw his way. And it's not Ianto's character making me think that that's how the relationship has progressed, it's Jack's, yet again. Jack, who makes these grandiose declarations about the nature of love to Gwen. Jack, who pines after a long dead wife. Jack, who we thought perhaps was a bit more flexible when it came to who and how many people he gives his heart to, who is QUITE OBVIOUSLY showing us that he believes in OMGONETRUELOVE, and between the lines quite blatantly showing us that Ianto isn't in the running. NO AFFECTION, throwaway lines about red caps and "doing Ianto", that's no longer a guy trying to hide the fact that he's in love with one of his subordinates, that's an omnisexual slut, not at all embarrassed about what he and the teaboy do with hockey sticks. AND I WOULD BE FINE WITH ALL THAT. If it weren't for the date conversation telling me that Ianto wants more, and Ianto's fawning in this episode blatanly telling us HE IS WICKED IN LOVE WITH JACK. Why is he settling for this? What have they done to my boy? Who said in the first episode that some fetishes should be kept to yourself? How many fetishes have he and Jack been broadcasting to the world since Adam? There's something so OFF in this relationship, and I think it's something you either see and hate or you just don't notice AT ALL.

One of the things that squicks me is Jack's flippancy about past conquests (all male, have we noticed yet??) and his obvious love for Gwen and DeadWife. It's almost like the implication is that while dabbling and sexual gymnastics is something Jack does with men, settling down is something he does with women. And Ianto and that dress? Just makes me feel like Jack hasn't yet let Ianto in on that fact, and the joke's on him. Ha ha.

NONE OF THE ABOVE MAKES ANY SENSE, I AM AWARE OF THAT, I JUST CAN'T PUT MY FINGER ON WHAT IS WRONG IN JANTOLAND. I JUST... HATE IT.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I think there is a lot to agree with here, in both the post and everyone's comments; having said that, though, I do wonder whether gender and orientation, as it were, would be quite such an issue if Gwen was kick-ass (at least as kick-ass as Ianto) or if anyone liked her even a little bit. Had Gwen many of the awesome characteristics that Ianto posses -- gorgeous and smart, funny as hell, impeccable work attire, efficiency in action (I really like how he wields that stun gun: "Tell me what I need to know.... Thanks. ZAP. Next?!" ) -- then I don't think people would have a problem with it. The core issue is that there is no earthly reason I can think of for Jack's feelings; they've given us no montage of Gwack building something together or training for a big match with Night Ranger playing in the background (that's how people really fall in love, right?), nor is she awesome enough to inspire love from afar.

Or, you might think about it this way: If in his next incarnation the Doctor were to be a woman, and retain all the awesome sauce of the doctors before, would it really be awful for Jack to carry on loving the Doctor exactly as he does now? I don't think so. Nor would I be upset if his feelings for the Doctor were to take a larger plot role, should such a gender switch happen.

By the same token, if Ianto were all self-righteous and whiny, I don't think the audience would be clamoring for a healthy same-sex portrayal. (Buffy-verse analogy here: I love me some Buffy + Angel, but I also LOVE me some Buffy + Spike because Spike owns, period. On the other hand, Angel + Cordelia = GROSS because she is stupid and boring. So, if Jack is Buff, Gwen is like Cordy and Ianto is Spike-like hotness.)

Bottom line: Jack + Gwen = Timeless Love does not add up, regardless of the couple's orientation, because Gwen being the object of all that timeless adoration is just unbelievable at the most fundamental level.

On the other issue, of Jack's treatment of Ianto, the more I think about the conference room retconning scene, the more uncomfortable I feel about their relationship. For me, the defining moment of Janto's shift toward ick was when Ianto thinks about the devastation he felt at Lisa's death and says to Jack, "You gave me meaning again."

At this point, Ianto clearly adores -- worships, even -- Jack in an unconditional sort of way, and deeply enough that brains don't enter in to the scenario. I like to think of myself as a damn smart woman -- damn smart -- and haven't I fallen madly for someone that I KNOW does not feel the same way, who clearly only used me as a substitute girlfriend? Uh... hello. Yes. Did I know what was happening the whole time? Yes. Did it make a difference to the way I felt? No. I did what I could to protect myself, as Ianto appeared to be doing in the first half of the season, but it takes a lot for a person to wean themselves off the delusions of the love crack (hello, Martha at the end of DW season 3?).

Anyway, I think Jack is a tool because there is an obvious power inequity here, and he knows it but takes advantage anyway. Obviously, he's Ianto's boss, and there's definitely repercussions there. But, also, after a statement like "You give me meaning," he should know by persisting with Ianto he's just shamelessly exploiting those feelings. (In a recent fic I wrote that to Jack, their escapades are "a creative form of self-congratulation and masturbation" and it rings true more than ever.) "Doing pizza and Ianto" in this context is just... ew. Guh, like he doesn't even respect Ianto enough to afford him some privacy (like some prototypical jock who talks about the girl he banged in his car last night).

And that's pretty damn unforgivable.

The Adam speech... gosh, I'd forgotten all about that. And here's me trying to figure out why I had squick after that episode, how dumb am I. You're completely right. It's gross.

Last season, my fear was that after Lisa, Jack saw in Ianto a man capable of INCREDIBLE devotion, and Jack responded to Ianto's advances purely in the hope of engineering a situation in which that devotion would be directed towards him, Jack, instead. I'm getting those vibes again.

This is probably not a time to be nitpicking, but in the scene from Adam, Ianto says "coming here gave me meaning again...You." Doesn't mean the same thing as solely Jack giving him meaning again, not to me anyway.

Jack has obvious feelings for Ianto just as Ianto has for Jack. How is it exploitation if Jack has feelings for Ianto? The relationship is two sided in my eyes.

If you buy that Jack does in fact have the same depth and kind of feelings for Ianto as he does for him, then there is none. My interpretation is that Ianto's feelings are much deeper, from the coat sniffin' to the desk kissin' and the "You" crying. If so, it's exploitation, Jack carrying on regardless of Ianto's needs and feelings.

Really, though, there's so many inconsistencies and such little evidence, I don't have a problem with others taking a different perspective. If you think the boys are on equal ground, I'm jealous: You probably are enjoying the series much more than myself right about now.

I am very much enjoying the series right now!

But keep in mind, the reason I think they are on even playing fields is because I don't think of Ianto as a love sick puppy, not at all. I do not think he is being blindly led around or anything like that.

One thing I really appreciate about the show is the fact that so many people who watch the same show really can view it so differently from one another : )

Really, though, there's so many inconsistencies and such little evidence
This is where the writers are coming up really small. Despite the status as a 'canon' relationship, we don't have that much more text than we had last year. It's frustrating. I don't know if the writers are being coy and holding off until episodes 12/13 or if there's really just not much to the relationship. But given GDL's interviews and the bits we've seen of Ianto's feelings, I'd say that Ianto is pretty serious about Jack. But I'm pretty clueless about what Jack feels about Ianto. Given that Jack is already in a position of power as Ianto's boss, giving Jack emotional power over Ianto as well is creating a bit of an imbalance that's making me personally uncomfortable. I want the Ianto from KKBB because he seemed to know how to handle Jack and make him a bit nervous/unsure.

Agreed. I also think the context the writers have give us makes it look much worse.

Jack with Ianto while mooning over and apparently really in love with Gwen makes the J/I relationship look 2nd rate and Ianto's seeming lack of issues with this a best confusing or at worst like he's a doormat.

If there was no Jack / Gwen I think most of people's major issues with the way the J/I relationship is portrayed would vanish.

You are spot-on there. Like I wrote in some other comment thread: I'd be more inclined to like Jack if he weren't a tool belt for making moony eyes at Gwen right in front of Ianto. Even if it's "just sex," that kind of dismissive behavior is downright tacky.

Jack comes across as unbelievably thoughtless mooning at Gwen in front of Ianto. Plus, as I've seen pointed out on other discussions and comments on the topic, if Jack wanted Gwen, he could have her. He just has to reach out and grab. Gwen's whiny, no-one'd have me spiel and I love yous, make it pretty obvious she'd jump at the chance. She doesn't exactly seem to have a problem with infidelity and Jack seemingly, has no problems treating Ianto like crap. Not only is the endless love and sexual chemistry not that convincing, but the not acting on it isn't either.

WRT people having less problems with the way Jack / Ianto is portrayed if Jack / Gwen weren't there. Yes we wouldn't have the thoughtless prick moments but also, I suspect, people would take a more positive view of the sexual innuendo and flippancy. They might feel the relationship is a bit coy in the portrayal, or a bit more depth might be nice, but jokes about inside leg measurements are more likely to be viewed as a light moment between a couple. Jack's immortality / lead / Doctor Who character status more likely to be considered a reason why you don't get as much depth or focus on Jack / Ianto as say Rhys / Gwen. Put the relationship, as portrayed, against, "Oh my God. If you left, Gwen, my life would be over", moments, by contrast, it looks crap. Reasons for not showing the Jack having strong feelings for Ianto stop applying, if he can moon over Gwen, then there's no reason not to moon over Ianto.

I could believe Ianto as being reasonably happy with the relationship without the Jack / Gwen mooning being there. With it there and so obvious, it's just WTF? I could believe he might put up with it (at least for a while), but that he's not pissed off and miserable about it? No way. In KKBB he seems to have a jealous streak a mile wide.

Yes. Again, it's the power imbalance created by a showing Jack as being so ambiguous. He's already Ianto's boss, he's older, he's more experienced. That's pretty damn nearly enough to make it uncomfortable as it is, without leaving us so confused as to what Jack's feelings are, when Ianto's are blatantly clear.

"Bottom line: Jack + Gwen = Timeless Love does not add up, regardless of the couple's orientation, because Gwen being the object of all that timeless adoration is just unbelievable at the most fundamental level."

'Gwen bashing' is such a harsh term and all too readily banded about in TW fandom; once you're branded you're seen as irrational, a misogynist, or worse. That you can't seperate the actor from the role, or any criticism of the character or of the performance is anathema.

But I admit, I loathe the charcter of Gwen. And your point above, to me, is the heart of it all. I could happily see Jack paired with just about anyone in the DW/TW canon- and even a few characters who haven't been invented yet; but I can't for the life of me get a grasp on what Jack sees in Gwen that amounts to his love for all space and time.

Naysayers will comment that there is nothing stating that Jack's love reserve is saved only for Gwen; but I think the more cynical of us know better, at least in the direction that the show is headed and with the statements of Chibnall and others. This isn't spoken as a Jack/Ianto shipper- hell, remove Ianto from the equation altogether; someone else would be the roadblock, the part-time shag.

I've spent considerable time in my head trying to churn over this, and I've yet to come across a non-ship, reasonable and throughtful meta that makes a decent argument for. Granted part of that is not having all the puzzle pieces laid out, but still. How can TPTB want to shove their effervescent lead into this narrow little story arc and then announce to the fans and media that a Jack and Gwen coupling will always be there, always be the end game? Rhys is a goner, sooner or later. Regardless that Gwen 'chose' him, simply remove him from the equation and we're back at square one. once again, Ianto is inconsequential.

Sadly I think it means having to throw all of DW/Moffet Jack and everything TPTB have attempted to sell us on about him out the window. That he was never intended to be a cheeky sex god, that his heart is actually a very small, unencompassing one, and that (here comes the vomit) were they to remove his immortality, he would either end the show dying in Gwen's arms, or they would fly off together into the double sunset.

So yeah, thanks for your post and agreed.

Totally agree with you on the Rhys is a goner; in fact, yesterday I commented on a different but similar thread:

"I think it's pretty interesting to see that everyone (though I do admit I haven't read all the comments in detail) seems to think that Rhys and Gwen getting married is the end of Gwack and confirmation of an essentially platonic relationship between the two. In addition to the fact that we know Gwen clearly has no problem with infidelity, I see their marriage as a the death knell for Rhys, actually. There's no way Rhys makes it out of season 3 alive, and I'm really only 50-50 about him making it out of the next three episodes without a fat retcon-sponsored divorce."

So, triple agreed.

Because you've set things out so well in your comment, can I ask: Does it make you sad? Really, it makes me feel just... disappointed that for all the potential, things just seem to be playing out so poorly. Maybe it's just me and what I was expecting. Sorry to get weepy emo on you and it's totally fine to disagree.

After all the thought and effort I've put into Janto, ironically, I'm actually having a considerably difficult time trying to describe how I do feel about them, and thus level of my disappointment in how this is turning out.

I am not the sort of fangirl who bounces from fandom to fandom; I don't even really watch Doctor Who with anywhere near the depth of interest I've developed for TW. (Years ago, I loved Buffy-Angel because I think Joss Whedon is a frickin' genius, but that's it. I haven't even seen any of season 1 of DW, and certainly none of the older episodes.) I started watching DW in season three, casually, because I've always enjoyed David Tennant; then TW by extension, mostly because I thought John B. had the most gorgeous smile ever.

But, it was absolutely all the gleeful kissing and "shocking" innuendo that got me hooked, and then I fell in love with Ianto-Jack. (But, there's been a distinct lack of *gleeful* -- or gratuitous, charming, passionate-- kissing this year.)

As a rule, I've absolutely always been incredibly supportive of the bi and gay community (historically, many gay friends), big on the gay rights (was a part of organizations in college and always consider same sex marriage a factor when supporting political candidates), but I've never been into the man love as I've become emotionally invested in the two of them. Like, I've seen gay couples and thought they were terrific, and been happy to see healthy gay characters portrayed positively in the media, but for the first time ever, I am genuinely turned on by mansex. ***I AM HOT for Janto***. They are so goddam porn efficient I cannot even say.

So, when a person like myself sees all this amazing potential (you hit the nail on the head there) going to waste, it just disappoints the hell out of me. To be honest, if there is no Ianto-Jack, I really don't see any reason to watch the show. In all honesty, I don't think it's consistently well-written enough to hold my interest. You don't even get as many great eps as you do with DW (like, there was a string of four or five eps of DW S3 that blew me away, including Blink, Human Nature, Family of Blood), and those were enough to buoy me when things with Martha and the Doctor didn't work out. Thus far, I haven't really seen that with TW. Up to now, KKBB is probably the best episode, followed very closely by Random Shoes (which barely features any TW cast), but, at *best*, they are 50-50 when it comes to episodes that are worth an hour of my time.

It probably taints the validity of my comments that I feel that way about the show, but, at heart, I'm a ridiculous romantic. And a strong -- be it tragic, sweet, doomed -- central relationship between two characters that I like is why I get hooked on any show. In this case, I really, really want Jack and Ianto to get their act together. If that goes away, I might stop watching. Or, I'll continue to watch casually, but I sure as hell won't be an active member of the fandom.

So, to make a long story only marginally shorter (and I'm sorry for the length of this reply, BTW), yes, it makes me sad. The thing is, don't we all have enough of things not working out the way we want them in real life to put up with it in our TV shows? I mean, if I wanted a totally awesome person to end up with a broken heart by someone who inexplicably did not appreciate how wonderful they are, I'd just sit around and think about my own love life. ;)

Word.

The wasted potential makes me sad.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

How they killed my Janto, dudes.

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject