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How they killed my Janto, dudes.
I'm still full of hate after Something Borrowed, and I'll attempt to explain why.
In Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, we were given a promising glimpse of Ianto-with-a-spine. He basically stated he wasn't interested in being Jack's part time office shag and wanted more, or no deal. Jack seemed to be au fait with this and looked to be pursuing the relationship. My little shipper heart went YAY, and that didn't really change, especially after To The Last Man, when I, along with everyone else in the world, pretty much saw what appeared to be a declaration of love from Jack. OMG WOW. Then... what the fuck happened?
I started to develop hate when Ianto said he and Jack 'dabbled'. While I could defend Jack's trying to hide the relationship based on what he said in Meat (he has an emotional investment, it makes you vulnerable, and he really shouldn't be forming EMOTIONAL bonds with his team, because it affects his abilities as their leader, yeah? Fine.), here, though, we suddenly have Ianto downplaying what I had assumed was an emotional attachment to Jack, and why? Dead Man Walking, again, shows Ianto on the defensive with regards to the relationship. "It's not like that", right, OK. Funnily enough, Ianto seems too unsure to expand and tell Owen what it IS, in fact, like. He's become almost apologetic, and why? Oh, roll on Something Borrowed, HERE'S WHY! He's IN LOVE. He's a lovesick puppy, thinking about wedding dresses and looking to settle down. If there's one thing we know about Ianto, you see, it's that he is wickedly loyal, faithful and, one would assume, MONOGAMOUS. Yet suddenly, since Adam, the relationship seems to have taken a turn into roleplaying toy-based sexamalympics. There's been no emotional connection since the kiss in TTLM. What bugs me is that Ianto is shown to be perfectly satisfied with this turn of events. It's almost like the Date Conversation never happened.
Now, I can buy that Jack is capable of loving more than one person. I can buy that Jack loves Gwen. I can even buy that Ianto is perfectly happy to know this and not care. That all makes perfect sense to me. What I can't buy is that Ianto has become such a lovesick boytoy, so impressed with Jack's avant garde sexual prowess, that he is happy to settle back into his role as office based shag, taking whatever nuggets of affection Jack sees fit too throw his way. And it's not Ianto's character making me think that that's how the relationship has progressed, it's Jack's, yet again. Jack, who makes these grandiose declarations about the nature of love to Gwen. Jack, who pines after a long dead wife. Jack, who we thought perhaps was a bit more flexible when it came to who and how many people he gives his heart to, who is QUITE OBVIOUSLY showing us that he believes in OMGONETRUELOVE, and between the lines quite blatantly showing us that Ianto isn't in the running. NO AFFECTION, throwaway lines about red caps and "doing Ianto", that's no longer a guy trying to hide the fact that he's in love with one of his subordinates, that's an omnisexual slut, not at all embarrassed about what he and the teaboy do with hockey sticks. AND I WOULD BE FINE WITH ALL THAT. If it weren't for the date conversation telling me that Ianto wants more, and Ianto's fawning in this episode blatanly telling us HE IS WICKED IN LOVE WITH JACK. Why is he settling for this? What have they done to my boy? Who said in the first episode that some fetishes should be kept to yourself? How many fetishes have he and Jack been broadcasting to the world since Adam? There's something so OFF in this relationship, and I think it's something you either see and hate or you just don't notice AT ALL.
One of the things that squicks me is Jack's flippancy about past conquests (all male, have we noticed yet??) and his obvious love for Gwen and DeadWife. It's almost like the implication is that while dabbling and sexual gymnastics is something Jack does with men, settling down is something he does with women. And Ianto and that dress? Just makes me feel like Jack hasn't yet let Ianto in on that fact, and the joke's on him. Ha ha.
NONE OF THE ABOVE MAKES ANY SENSE, I AM AWARE OF THAT, I JUST CAN'T PUT MY FINGER ON WHAT IS WRONG IN JANTOLAND. I JUST... HATE IT.
In Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, we were given a promising glimpse of Ianto-with-a-spine. He basically stated he wasn't interested in being Jack's part time office shag and wanted more, or no deal. Jack seemed to be au fait with this and looked to be pursuing the relationship. My little shipper heart went YAY, and that didn't really change, especially after To The Last Man, when I, along with everyone else in the world, pretty much saw what appeared to be a declaration of love from Jack. OMG WOW. Then... what the fuck happened?
I started to develop hate when Ianto said he and Jack 'dabbled'. While I could defend Jack's trying to hide the relationship based on what he said in Meat (he has an emotional investment, it makes you vulnerable, and he really shouldn't be forming EMOTIONAL bonds with his team, because it affects his abilities as their leader, yeah? Fine.), here, though, we suddenly have Ianto downplaying what I had assumed was an emotional attachment to Jack, and why? Dead Man Walking, again, shows Ianto on the defensive with regards to the relationship. "It's not like that", right, OK. Funnily enough, Ianto seems too unsure to expand and tell Owen what it IS, in fact, like. He's become almost apologetic, and why? Oh, roll on Something Borrowed, HERE'S WHY! He's IN LOVE. He's a lovesick puppy, thinking about wedding dresses and looking to settle down. If there's one thing we know about Ianto, you see, it's that he is wickedly loyal, faithful and, one would assume, MONOGAMOUS. Yet suddenly, since Adam, the relationship seems to have taken a turn into roleplaying toy-based sexamalympics. There's been no emotional connection since the kiss in TTLM. What bugs me is that Ianto is shown to be perfectly satisfied with this turn of events. It's almost like the Date Conversation never happened.
Now, I can buy that Jack is capable of loving more than one person. I can buy that Jack loves Gwen. I can even buy that Ianto is perfectly happy to know this and not care. That all makes perfect sense to me. What I can't buy is that Ianto has become such a lovesick boytoy, so impressed with Jack's avant garde sexual prowess, that he is happy to settle back into his role as office based shag, taking whatever nuggets of affection Jack sees fit too throw his way. And it's not Ianto's character making me think that that's how the relationship has progressed, it's Jack's, yet again. Jack, who makes these grandiose declarations about the nature of love to Gwen. Jack, who pines after a long dead wife. Jack, who we thought perhaps was a bit more flexible when it came to who and how many people he gives his heart to, who is QUITE OBVIOUSLY showing us that he believes in OMGONETRUELOVE, and between the lines quite blatantly showing us that Ianto isn't in the running. NO AFFECTION, throwaway lines about red caps and "doing Ianto", that's no longer a guy trying to hide the fact that he's in love with one of his subordinates, that's an omnisexual slut, not at all embarrassed about what he and the teaboy do with hockey sticks. AND I WOULD BE FINE WITH ALL THAT. If it weren't for the date conversation telling me that Ianto wants more, and Ianto's fawning in this episode blatanly telling us HE IS WICKED IN LOVE WITH JACK. Why is he settling for this? What have they done to my boy? Who said in the first episode that some fetishes should be kept to yourself? How many fetishes have he and Jack been broadcasting to the world since Adam? There's something so OFF in this relationship, and I think it's something you either see and hate or you just don't notice AT ALL.
One of the things that squicks me is Jack's flippancy about past conquests (all male, have we noticed yet??) and his obvious love for Gwen and DeadWife. It's almost like the implication is that while dabbling and sexual gymnastics is something Jack does with men, settling down is something he does with women. And Ianto and that dress? Just makes me feel like Jack hasn't yet let Ianto in on that fact, and the joke's on him. Ha ha.
NONE OF THE ABOVE MAKES ANY SENSE, I AM AWARE OF THAT, I JUST CAN'T PUT MY FINGER ON WHAT IS WRONG IN JANTOLAND. I JUST... HATE IT.
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I'm perfectly happy with J/I relationship as long as it's kept clear that is is only carnal. I don't think that makes him a dick, it makes him Jack. Implying anything else is a neutering. IMAO. YMMV.
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Jack ONLY asked for the date after he knew Gwen was engage. I realize it was also his first chance, but you can't get around the timing. I never got the impression that Ianto demanded or got anything from Jack. It was just an escalation of "Looks good in a suit." He embarassed and maybe flattered Ianto, but he certainly never promised him a rose-garden and any specialness you may see in "I came back for you," is under-cut by "All of you," and his use of nearly the same words to Gwen.
Just to repaeat. I am NOT a Jack/Gwen shipper, but I am a Jack/Anybody but Ianto shipper, which from a canon-specific POV backs me into a corner, until TPTB come through on the Jack/Owen subtext.
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It's pretty poor of RTD to protray a male/male relationship as being about nothing but sex and a male/female relationship (Jack/Gwen, Jack/Estelle) as having more of an emotional element to it. Homophobics properly have a field day when it comes to Torchwood.
And frankly, Jack feels sorry for hismelf just as much as Ianto. And Jack cuts in on the Bride and Groom as they dance together - a very rude thing to do.
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Yeah. And there's no Daddy/Son role-playing in the gay community. And Jack isn't (apparently) all about the games.
So John (much as I love him) can peddle that elsewhere. He might also want to stop making the chemistry so palpable between Jack/Gwen and Jack/Owen IF he thinks is all about J/I.
Was Ianto's cutting in on Jack/Gwen in their private moment (joking about him, btw) more or less rude than Jack cutting in on Ianto?
It's the "Jack fucks women, but loves women" that's been pissing me off for months, for exactly the opposite reason. I want an Omni-jack who can fuck or love both and do it at the same time with multiple partners in multiple species, but at the very least I want confirmation that he is NOT JUST GAY, because that's not who I fell in love with.
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It's BS like this that make me want to throw my shoe at Gwack fans (not to say you are one, but this rhetoric smacks of Gwack). If you'll note Jack says and I quote "I mean, while I was away, I was thinking... maybe we could... you know, when this is all done... dinner, a movie.." where in that line does it imply "when I talked to Gwen and found out she was engaged I settled on"? It doesn't. Moreover, there is NO point for him to preface his asking Ianto out on date with anything about "while I [he] was away" because Ianto wouldn't be the one to think Jack was settling on him after the Gwen scene, because Ianto doesn't know about that scene. Therefore, the ONLY reason it is added is to explain it to the viewers... to stress that this has nothing to do with Gwen and was something Jack came to the conclusion of, well, "while I [he] was away".
If you didn't take that scene for what it was (subtextually thick) then you seriously missed the point of the scene. EVERY bleedin' interview on that scene (and review of critics) says it's a conversation in subtext. If they were merely talking about office fetishes, then it wouldn't have been stressed all over the place that they werent. The most telling line of Ianto's is "as long as it's not in an office" in regards to their date... pretty blatantly means "I don't want an office relationship anymore"... you don't even need a degree in English for that one! ^_~
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I'm certainly impressed with your vehemence in defending your point of view, if not with your ability to accept any level of ambiguity regarding what the characters may or may not be feeling.
It must be very comforting to be that sure of yourself views on the matter. Perhaps you've have a personal note from RTD telling you exactly what the scene really means, including one where he discounts the look on Jack's face when he finds out about the engagement and the timing of the date asking.
Since you have all this inside information, I will henceforce bow to your wisdom and accept that you are privy to the truth that I couldn't possibly see, especially without a degree in English. Cool how you seem to know exactly what my level of education may or may not be as well.
Your use of the smushname for the ship you find so appalling, since apparently there is no canon evidence for it whatsoever, is especially endearing.
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My apologies for coming off so strongly, I do agree with much of your points in your earlier comment, it's just that when they give you a canon line that suggests he considered the whole "date" thing "while he was away" it bugs me when people throw it out the window. The line itself isn't necessary unless they wanted us to know that little fact. There’s no other point for it.
I grant you the ambiguity of the scene, it's purposefully there, and my apologies yet again that I am unable to see it as anything but. Especially when the interviews all stress it's a subtextual conversation, I also fail to see how anyone can interpret it at surface level (save the fact that it's not the best written/acted show ever). If you do read it as it is, then you've countered what they seem to have intended with the scene.,. which is fine, but does negate their apparent aim when they wrote it.
Moreover, all the interviews that stress there is no Gwack (and yes, I shall “smushname” because I find it’s fanon term just as aptly appalling as the "relationship" it represents) this season, the BBCAmerica's Captain's Blog that don't seem to see it beyond Jack losing a valued member of his team, etc make me reevaluate any scene where it seems like Gwack is afoot. I’m not saying my interpretation wins out, just that it seems easier to accept (personally) when it’s rather in keeping to all we’ve been told by writers/actors/the beeb to expect/is going on.
Sorry to belittle you in anyway… I acted on a knee-jerk reaction to the tired rhetoric of Gwackers and was disgustingly harsh when you did nothing to garner such a reaction (and I'm not being sarcastic).
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Obviously we all feel pretty strongly about this and it's good to care passionately about your fandom, but it's a fine line between defending your position and ending up on Fandom Wank as a horrible example.
I'm not on any of the Jack/Gwen comms and didn't know the Jack/Gwen scene was coming before the office scene until I saw it, and the second I heard Jack ask Ianto for the date, I thought timing is everything. If I sound like I'm parroting a line, it's one that occurred to me spontaneously.
Starting from that perspective, Jack knows he's losing or has lost Gwen and sense the possibility of Ianto pulling away as well and being willing to do or say anything to stop it including, "while I was away."
Just to make my position clear-I only want Jack/Gwen because I need some acceptible canon alternative to Jack/Ianto. I'm a canon junkie, so I have to accept what is there: Sex. Fine. Canon it is. But the sticking point for me is those in the J/I camp who insist it must be LOVE and seem to have a attack of the bitters where there is the implication that Jack might love or care about someone else, specifically Gwen to a higher degree.
If the thought of Jack loving/longing for Gwen causes you that much pain, you'll need to ask JB to stop acting his heart out whenever he's given the opportunity to play a scene that suggests otherwise.
But really, the smushnames suck. Whether you're using them for a pairing you like or hate. Unless there's real wit or humor in the smushname, there's just not reason and it reflects badly on fandom as a whole.
My favorite is Syck for Syd/Jack on Alias because it says what it is so perfectly.
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1. I loath "The Gwen Show" Torchwood can be at times (ie, it's all about Gwen, everybody wants Gwen; Rhys, Owen, apparently Jack, Eugene... she even thinks Ianto is cutting in to dance with her).
2. I don't like people who commit themselves to monogamous relationships breaking said commitment (Gwen cheating on Rhys physically with Owen was appalling enough; Gwen apparently cheating on Rhys emotionally with Jack is downright malicious). This does not apply to Jack as he does not make any claims to monogamy.
3. It belittles what they have with their other partners (Jack/Gwen fans, for the most part, either are planning ways to kill off Rhys or say Gwen is "only settling" when we've seen, in canon, that's not necessarily the case and she’s actively choosing Rhys over Jack).
4. It makes Gwen a hypocrite. When anyone in the team does something morally grey, she's all over it and preachy. When she does it, we're suppose to accept that she's “just human". Also, it belittles all the lines on how honest she's going to be with Rhys from now on because we know that's not the case.
5. The notion others have articulated much better on this thread that Jack can only commit to females and men are “just for fun”. Or, that it furthers the stereotype that bisexuals are unable to commit to anyone at all (even to which sex they “prefer”… blah, how I loath that one). And if they ever were, it’d be with the “right” sex (ie, the opposite one). If a bisexual goes with a person of the same sex, then they’re “unable to fully come out as gay” and only claiming bisexuality to “straddle the fence” so they can be partially be accepted by the “norm” (sorry, this is a personal issue of mine and it really grrrs me… ending tirade!).
In short, I don't mind disruption to Jack/Ianto so long as it's not with Gwen or not with Gwen more. Equal would be tolerable. But, if Jack must have feelings for a woman, I’d rather Tosh (though that would disrupt the Tosh/Owen thing they’re beautifully creating). It's the "Gwen" part of the scenario that makes me cringe. And it’s the Gwen more part that always squicks me.
And JB... he's not the best actor (obviously, this is my opinion, and I’m sure many would disagree). I love him and when he gets it right, he gets it right! but he overdoes it so often I wonder if he still thinks he's on stage. But, even though I see the pain there as well, I can’t just jump on it being a romantic thing when there are other viable alternatives that are just as consistent in the canon (this show is rather hard for canon, as I agree with many others that the writers don’t ever seem to get together and go over what the others wrote last time… it jumps around so terribly -_-). Not to say it’s not a romantic loss he’s feeling, but I just can’t see it as being the only interpretation and it’s not the interpretation I chose to go with (go figure, lol). I may be deluding myself to see only what I want, but it does help when BBCA also seems to be deluding themselves with the Captain’s Blog bits along with me.
Insisting that the pain in JB’s eyes with Gwen can only equal romantic longing is just as much of a jump as me saying you can only interpret the office scene one way. As it stands, ALL of this is ambiguous in canon and fans on both sides see it as they choose.
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I post a Torchwood babble after each episode and you're welcome to come over to the Chelsea Drugstore and thrash it around a bit more if you're so inclined, as well as check out the fic.
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However, when she began cheating on Rhys with Owen, I got pissed. I noticed that something was weird when she gave Jack that small kiss as a thank-you in the second episode, and treated it like, Hey! I have a boyfriend but he says it's okay to kiss guys whenever I want to! She is a hypocrite, pure and simple. She's supposed to be the moral compass of the show, but she's hardly one to talk. I'm not even going to get into how she's so obviously in love with Jack yet refuses to let Rhys go. The fact that the show became about HER instead of the TEAM just hurts me inside.
Wow, I didn't mean for this to turn into an essay of Gwen-hate XD sorry lol.