tencrush: (Default)
tencrush ([personal profile] tencrush) wrote2008-12-08 04:22 pm

Jack scissored his fingers WHERE?

Oh, alright then, I'll do a post about Jack, Ianto and anal sex. Elsewhere on my flist there's already a rant about the subject, but I still feel inspired enough to contribute my thoughts on the matter.


First off, let me just say that I read very little in the way of fic. I have these bouts of extreme boredom now and again, during which I'll suddenly read about ten fics, but that's about it. I've noticed, though, during these binges, that there seem to be some overused descriptions in Jack/Ianto fic (for that is what I'll usually read, and as I've said before, the main reason I do so is because sitting down to read a big splodge of fic in one go every four weeks or so gives one an interesting insight into the overriding themes that people seem to be thinking along, I find every so often, the angle at which fic writers approach a relationship like Jack/Ianto will change, due to new canon or speculation, and suddenly romance will be higher on the agenda, or the top will become the bottom, or some such thing) and, not being an avid reader, I wonder if these are specific to this relationship, or more general slash tropes, or what. Anyone who can tell me is more than welcome to do so.

  • THE LUBRICATION COEFFICIENT. People are always complaining that there's not enough lube in bumseks fics. I find this weird, because it doesn't really bother me. I find that, unless specific mention is made of there NOT being lube involved, I usually just assume that it is, whether it's mentioned or not. Someone made mention of the overuse of the lube-bottle-cap-click sound effect in Jack/Ianto fic, I've noticed this, too, and it always strikes me as a fic author's way of obliquely mentioning the lube in in order to avoid the "WOT? NO LUBE?" comments that would inevitably follow if they didn't. Is this really such a problem for the reader? Is it really too much to ask people to assume there's lubrication involved? Is it just me that assumes that there is? I personally think there's TOO MUCH mention of lube in Jack/Ianto fics. That can't just be me. (And sometimes, the "Wot no lube?" question strikes me as such a terribly anal-virgin question to ask. Obviously there's lube involved. Or a fuck of a lot of precum. Either way, does it really matter enough to warrant a mention every single time?)

  • THE UNBEARABLE TIGHTNESS OF BEING. The word "tight". Yeah, the arse, Jack or Ianto's, whichever you fancy, is a "tight hole". I won't dispute that in any way, though I must say that the mention of it being a tight hole always strikes me as a tad superfluous, and, in a way, such a terribly heterosexual observation. I mean, okay, it's tight, but dear God it's not that tight and a guy will only really say that it's tight because he's mentally comparing it to your vagina. Yeah it's tight. And hot. Hot and tight. "Tight heat", even. Yes, I get it already.

  • THE FINGER-SCISSOR-COCK MANEUVRE. I have a myriad of problems with this particular preparatory procedure. The first being that its description is always so overly clinical, and I can never help picturing Jack frowning in concentration as if trying to undo the tricky nut up there that makes Ianto's arse unclench (And, yeah, I find it's usually Ianto on the receiving end of this one.) But mostly it's just the simple fact that nobody, not even the most virginal of arses, is so tight that they would require this much in the way of relaxation. Prep work for anal sex is mental, and does indeed involve relaxation, but that relaxation can be achieved in whatever way you fancy, because it's mental. It doesn't require that specific tenderising-a-steak thing that some authors seem to love so much. It's mental. Got it? And apart from anything else, and as has been pointed out by several people, you can't really scissor anything up there. It ain't that roomy, and I, personally, always find myself distracted by those scissoring fingers and where they end up going next. One day, maybe I'll get that fic where they have a cuddle afterwards and one of them strokes the other's hair and the other one says "Could you not do that? Your fingers smell like my butt."


Now all of these things have something in common in my mind, and it's why I wanted to bring them up. They all strike me as a bit het, and a touch romantic. The use of lube, the tight descriptors, the thorough and loving preparation involved, it all strikes me as the sort of thing involved when heterosexual couples finally breach that frontier of "May I put my cock up your arse in a non-accidental fashion?", and not really in character for a gay couple that are regularly fucking each other. (I'm not even going to go into the amount of anal sex that Jack and Ianto seem to have, as a percentage of the total sex-things that they do, because, again, it strikes me as worryingly high, and often seems to have a vibe of this-is-the-slash-equivalent-of-vaginal-intercourse-and-therefore-romantic about it) I could, of course, be entirely wrong, I'm not a gay couple, but there's just something off about it to me. My question, really, is, are these general slash things, or are they more prevalent in Jack/Ianto than they are elsewhere? Because the thing is, to me as a reader, Jack/Ianto fic tends to come across as overly vanilla and romantic, and these things are a part of that. Now given the fact that Jack and Ianto are canonically having sex, but canon is slightly more vague on their romantic attachment, I can well figure why this would be the case in this particular pairing, fic is the place where fans fill in the gaps in canon, after all, and as far as the sex goes, this canon's not particularly gappy. If it's more of a general slash thing, is that just the heterosexuality and possible anal virginity of female authors shining through? Is that how women would like the backdoor to be approached if it's even approached at all? Am I just giving off way TMI by even mentioning that I think it's all so... delicate? I am, aren't I?

Bum.

[identity profile] kribban.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 05:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I read a fic in another fandom once where the characters were having oral sex and had been together for a year. They had never had anal sex and ít was mentioned several times, both in internal monologues and in actual dialogue that they "had never had sex" and would they like to "have sex" some day etc etc.

Character A even mused to himself that "he liked blow jobs, they were fun, but sex on the other hand..."

So yes, a general slash thing.

[identity profile] kribban.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 05:46 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the agenda of the Whoniverse is to show same sex and mixed-race romance as completely normal and nothing to make a fuss about.

[identity profile] kribban.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 05:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, I haven't, but my beta has. Is that sufficient?

[identity profile] cionaudha.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 05:54 pm (UTC)(link)
You have a beta! Bless you. Yes, you get a pass. :-)

[identity profile] cionaudha.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 05:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I withdraw my snark on the subject of immediate re-erection.

Apparently it depends on the man: it can be immediate, or take all night.

Never met an immediate man, but I guess I now have no problem with our boys being one.

[identity profile] 51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the lube presentation problem is the idea that the sex was planned and not spontaneous. Kinda like having a condom in your hand when you kiss someone for the first time. Plus, I swear I can hear the wheezy *squack!* sound of a squeeze bottle.

Describing the sensation of it works, though.

It cracks me up that Jack always has a container of lube in his coat pocket. Car keys, lip balm, lube. Does he ever drop it when he's getting out a pen at the bank? "Excuse me, sir, I believe this Astroglide is yours."


[identity profile] aquila-star.livejournal.com 2008-12-10 08:35 am (UTC)(link)
so funny that this comment made me lmao and when I looked up to see who this funny person was, I went, 'hey! I know her!'

*smooches you* gonna have to mention the astroglide in chat tomorrow. ;D

[identity profile] aquila-star.livejournal.com 2008-12-10 08:41 am (UTC)(link)
well, the lube thing isn't a problem for me, if there's no mention of any kind of help in the slick area, I wonder if I'm reading 14yo virgin fic. I like lube, lube is good.

what bothers me about anal scenes, and in every fandom I've read/wrote for, is the assumption that complete, thorough prep is needed every time. if Jack and Ianto were doing it as often as fanfic would have us believe, then more often than not, they'd need little to no prep. just lube. :D

and I don't wanna call down the sweet innocent hetero teenagers out there writing gay porn for fantasy's sake, hell, I'm all for the fantasy, but personal experience is made of win. and you don't really need another person. just lube. :P

also, I will be writing frot fic soon. cause frotting it hot, and imo, there's not enough of it in ANY fandom.

[identity profile] aquila-star.livejournal.com 2008-12-10 08:42 am (UTC)(link)
also, with Jack, I assume sex is always planned. :D

[identity profile] kashiichan.livejournal.com 2008-12-11 05:12 am (UTC)(link)
One day, maybe I'll get that fic where they have a cuddle afterwards and one of them strokes the other's hair and the other one says "Could you not do that? Your fingers smell like my butt."
Oh man, that'd be FANTASTIC.

[identity profile] kashiichan.livejournal.com 2008-12-11 05:26 am (UTC)(link)
I'd read that.

[identity profile] kashiichan.livejournal.com 2008-12-11 05:27 am (UTC)(link)
Off-topic, but I love that icon.

[identity profile] kashiichan.livejournal.com 2008-12-11 05:28 am (UTC)(link)
It looks like we'd like that. :D

[identity profile] etmuse.livejournal.com 2008-12-11 01:26 pm (UTC)(link)
To be fair on the guy, I doubt that sex itself has actually changed much since 2001, so it's not as if the information isn't still good

(I was linked there through another fandom many months ago and spent several days reading pretty much the whole thing, including a lot of the Q&A... I don't know if my writing actually improved as a result but it definitely made me think things through more)

[identity profile] lydia-petze.livejournal.com 2008-12-12 01:09 am (UTC)(link)
My question, really, is, are these general slash things

Definitely general slash things - everything you've said here is common to every slash fandom I've ever read in, and I've read in a lot. It's also probably the reason that, although I'm still a big slasher, I rarely read fic these days, and when I do, I tend to skip the sex, unless the author's convinced me she's going to bring something different to the party.
ext_6610: (TW_CaptJohn-Poodles)

[identity profile] webbgirl.livejournal.com 2008-12-12 01:33 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, there are a lot of tropes that have been passed down through the years in slash. I've also seen the same in a lot of gay erotica and even gay porn.

The lube mentions I think are much more prevalent in fandom, but I think that has to do with a fear of getting smacked down in comments for not mentioning it. Personally, I would rather folks not mention the lube at all than use some of the random and oh so not appropriate materials.

As for the anal sex quotient, I think it's about equivalent to what you'd find in gay lit, which I think would be much more equivalent than comparing it to 'real life'. Het fic is just as bad when it comes to this sort of stuff and it's comparisons to what goes on with real couples.

I don't know about the heteronormative aspect of anal sex with men. I guess that may be true for some authors. I land on the side of folks who enjoy the activity, so I'm probably not the one to ask.

[identity profile] spoggly.livejournal.com 2008-12-12 01:40 am (UTC)(link)
In my experience, this happens in a lot of fandoms, and it is JUST AS RAGINGLY STUPID AND HETEROCENTRIST in every single one.

A+ POST TWO THUMBS UP

[identity profile] sorrelchestnut.livejournal.com 2008-12-12 01:43 am (UTC)(link)
The lube thing I can answer, actually, since it looks like everyone else has it all covered. The reason people tend to dogpile non-lube-mentioning stories is because there have been SO VERY MANY bad!fic slash stories that... don't use lube during anal sex. And I'm not just talking about not mentioning it, I mean the characters actually weren't using any. Or they were using spit, or mayonnaise or on one memorable occasion, glue. So basically it's even easier to find anal-sex-with-non-lubricating-substances than it is to find anal-sex-with-scissoring-fingers. (Though I always just took that to mean a sort of very slight wiggling around of fingers? I dunno.) It boils down to a case of writers (and readers) being supercautious about the whole thing, because Bad Things have happened in slash fic way, way too many times, and nobody wants to have their sexin' ruined by the thought of the boys going lubeless.

[identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com 2008-12-12 02:20 am (UTC)(link)
Oh gods, yes! No-one ever rinses their mouth out after hurling!

I also have a bee in my bonnet about food that appears on screen and never gets eaten (as it would impeded the dialogue or action), but that's neither here nor there.)
thalia: photo of Chicago skyline (Default)

[personal profile] thalia 2008-12-12 02:22 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, except one of the best slash writers I know has never had sex. There are always exceptions.

(Here via metafandom.)

[identity profile] miriam-heddy.livejournal.com 2008-12-12 02:25 am (UTC)(link)
It's bad form to run with scissors. It's also bad form to fuck with scissors.

Scissors are sharp.

And I must say that I prefer mentions of lube only because I've been traumatized by too much slash in which the writer clearly modeled the anus on the vag.

[identity profile] alchemia.livejournal.com 2008-12-12 02:29 am (UTC)(link)
I prefer spit actually, it does work for some people.

[identity profile] sorrelchestnut.livejournal.com 2008-12-12 02:31 am (UTC)(link)
Not really having any kind of personal experience myself, all I can say is that as far as I've seen spit-for-lube usually sets off at least one comment of "No! And also ow!" so I'm guessing it works less well for others.

[identity profile] alchemia.livejournal.com 2008-12-12 02:44 am (UTC)(link)
Oh yeah, I didn't mean that it would work for everyone. But then that is true of any sex act. I just wanted to point out that its really an issue of personal preference rather than something that is always physically impossible.

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