tencrush: (Default)
tencrush ([personal profile] tencrush) wrote2008-12-08 04:22 pm

Jack scissored his fingers WHERE?

Oh, alright then, I'll do a post about Jack, Ianto and anal sex. Elsewhere on my flist there's already a rant about the subject, but I still feel inspired enough to contribute my thoughts on the matter.


First off, let me just say that I read very little in the way of fic. I have these bouts of extreme boredom now and again, during which I'll suddenly read about ten fics, but that's about it. I've noticed, though, during these binges, that there seem to be some overused descriptions in Jack/Ianto fic (for that is what I'll usually read, and as I've said before, the main reason I do so is because sitting down to read a big splodge of fic in one go every four weeks or so gives one an interesting insight into the overriding themes that people seem to be thinking along, I find every so often, the angle at which fic writers approach a relationship like Jack/Ianto will change, due to new canon or speculation, and suddenly romance will be higher on the agenda, or the top will become the bottom, or some such thing) and, not being an avid reader, I wonder if these are specific to this relationship, or more general slash tropes, or what. Anyone who can tell me is more than welcome to do so.

  • THE LUBRICATION COEFFICIENT. People are always complaining that there's not enough lube in bumseks fics. I find this weird, because it doesn't really bother me. I find that, unless specific mention is made of there NOT being lube involved, I usually just assume that it is, whether it's mentioned or not. Someone made mention of the overuse of the lube-bottle-cap-click sound effect in Jack/Ianto fic, I've noticed this, too, and it always strikes me as a fic author's way of obliquely mentioning the lube in in order to avoid the "WOT? NO LUBE?" comments that would inevitably follow if they didn't. Is this really such a problem for the reader? Is it really too much to ask people to assume there's lubrication involved? Is it just me that assumes that there is? I personally think there's TOO MUCH mention of lube in Jack/Ianto fics. That can't just be me. (And sometimes, the "Wot no lube?" question strikes me as such a terribly anal-virgin question to ask. Obviously there's lube involved. Or a fuck of a lot of precum. Either way, does it really matter enough to warrant a mention every single time?)

  • THE UNBEARABLE TIGHTNESS OF BEING. The word "tight". Yeah, the arse, Jack or Ianto's, whichever you fancy, is a "tight hole". I won't dispute that in any way, though I must say that the mention of it being a tight hole always strikes me as a tad superfluous, and, in a way, such a terribly heterosexual observation. I mean, okay, it's tight, but dear God it's not that tight and a guy will only really say that it's tight because he's mentally comparing it to your vagina. Yeah it's tight. And hot. Hot and tight. "Tight heat", even. Yes, I get it already.

  • THE FINGER-SCISSOR-COCK MANEUVRE. I have a myriad of problems with this particular preparatory procedure. The first being that its description is always so overly clinical, and I can never help picturing Jack frowning in concentration as if trying to undo the tricky nut up there that makes Ianto's arse unclench (And, yeah, I find it's usually Ianto on the receiving end of this one.) But mostly it's just the simple fact that nobody, not even the most virginal of arses, is so tight that they would require this much in the way of relaxation. Prep work for anal sex is mental, and does indeed involve relaxation, but that relaxation can be achieved in whatever way you fancy, because it's mental. It doesn't require that specific tenderising-a-steak thing that some authors seem to love so much. It's mental. Got it? And apart from anything else, and as has been pointed out by several people, you can't really scissor anything up there. It ain't that roomy, and I, personally, always find myself distracted by those scissoring fingers and where they end up going next. One day, maybe I'll get that fic where they have a cuddle afterwards and one of them strokes the other's hair and the other one says "Could you not do that? Your fingers smell like my butt."


Now all of these things have something in common in my mind, and it's why I wanted to bring them up. They all strike me as a bit het, and a touch romantic. The use of lube, the tight descriptors, the thorough and loving preparation involved, it all strikes me as the sort of thing involved when heterosexual couples finally breach that frontier of "May I put my cock up your arse in a non-accidental fashion?", and not really in character for a gay couple that are regularly fucking each other. (I'm not even going to go into the amount of anal sex that Jack and Ianto seem to have, as a percentage of the total sex-things that they do, because, again, it strikes me as worryingly high, and often seems to have a vibe of this-is-the-slash-equivalent-of-vaginal-intercourse-and-therefore-romantic about it) I could, of course, be entirely wrong, I'm not a gay couple, but there's just something off about it to me. My question, really, is, are these general slash things, or are they more prevalent in Jack/Ianto than they are elsewhere? Because the thing is, to me as a reader, Jack/Ianto fic tends to come across as overly vanilla and romantic, and these things are a part of that. Now given the fact that Jack and Ianto are canonically having sex, but canon is slightly more vague on their romantic attachment, I can well figure why this would be the case in this particular pairing, fic is the place where fans fill in the gaps in canon, after all, and as far as the sex goes, this canon's not particularly gappy. If it's more of a general slash thing, is that just the heterosexuality and possible anal virginity of female authors shining through? Is that how women would like the backdoor to be approached if it's even approached at all? Am I just giving off way TMI by even mentioning that I think it's all so... delicate? I am, aren't I?

Bum.

[identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com 2008-12-08 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I totally agree about the show. I love that part of it too. I was just talking about fics. And really, just the cumulative affect of it never being an issue, ever.

[identity profile] travellingone.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 12:39 am (UTC)(link)
All three points have been present in slash for ages. All you can do is laugh. A couple friends of mine and I once tried a few positions described in a fic and concluded that you needed to be double-jointed and possibly an octopus to accomodate the described positions.

[identity profile] cirrocumulus.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 12:58 am (UTC)(link)
I KNOOOOW. WHY IS THERE NOT MORE OF IT? THERE NEEDS TO BE SO. MUCH. MORE OF IT.

(Anonymous) 2008-12-09 01:07 am (UTC)(link)
As someone who's been in slash fandom going on 12 years myself, I say: it's pretty much the same in any and all fandoms. I've lurked in some, participated in some and probably written in say, six. I don't know where all my stories are because this is my fourth 'puter. Two died ugly deaths and one is a MS ME beheomoth on my desk that isn't compatible with this surf board.

My point? I've written it all - instant re-hard on, anal sex after eating a big supper, one-finger-two-finger-three-finger-dick, the whole enchilda. Every thing. Some of it bad. Real bad. But there was evolution. And I stopped writing the anal sex act about five years ago. I'd written it all, pretty much.

And it's the same in almost all fandoms, except what makes Torchwood different: The boyz actually kiss and there's the very real possibility of mPreg. It's canon. I know they kiss in other shows, i.e. the two QaF's, but this one is more accepted for whatever reason. And, frankly, IMO, QaF was just too soapy and whiny.

15 year old girls as boy/man sex writers - it's not all 15 year old girls writing boy/man sex badly. Some are quite adult women with very active fantasy lobes. They aren't willing or able to craft a good story, they write to suit themselves.

Anyhoo. It makes finding really, really good Torchwood fic all the sweeter, eh?

I'm a doof

[identity profile] wiley-nilly.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 01:10 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry, that's me up there.

[identity profile] lefaym.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 01:36 am (UTC)(link)
I prefer lube to be mentioned myself-- or at least something to indicate that they're preparing for penetration in some way. But I agree completely about the other two, and you're quite right that things other than anal sex should be explored (and I'm rather guilty of writing anal in the last two fics that I've written, although niether has been posted yet-- and in my defense, Ianto was the top in both of them).

Another thing that bothers me is that oral sex in TW is almost always deep-throating. Now, I can buy that Jack is probably capable of that, given that he's done just about everything, but even so, he wouldn't necessarily do it every time (particularly not when he isn't in a position to get his mouth and throat in a straight line), and besides that, I just don't find it that sexy-- my gag reflex starts acting up just reading about it! :P

(Anonymous) 2008-12-09 02:17 am (UTC)(link)
Possibly, Minotaur's Sex Tips for Slash Writers?
http://www.squidge.org/~minotaur/classic/eroc.html

[identity profile] seanchaidh.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 03:10 am (UTC)(link)
That is it! But damn, it hasn't been updated since 2001.

[identity profile] tomkatt.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 05:02 am (UTC)(link)
Scissoring????????????

yik squick...

yuk ug...

bleah ewww....

and yes,

OUCH!!!

....this message brought to you by Tomkatt and your friendly neighborhood gay agenda, now appearing nationwide to FAABULOUS reviews...

[identity profile] tomkatt.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 05:05 am (UTC)(link)
Ah... yes... and Jack needs a 15 inch willy to accommodate some positions described in some fics. The aforementioned willy must also be "L" shaped.

!

[identity profile] tomkatt.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 05:08 am (UTC)(link)
Oh yes... one fic had anal sex in the evening followed with oral sex as a wake-me-up.

Not pretty...or hygienic.

[identity profile] oneloveonelight.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 05:42 am (UTC)(link)
You never go ass to mouth. LOL.
ext_36848: (Default)

[identity profile] andreth47.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 05:44 am (UTC)(link)
Rasberry jello, as lube for intercrural sex!

[identity profile] totally4ryo.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 06:26 am (UTC)(link)
I have a question, if you don't mind. Have you actually read lots of gay fiction -- as in walked into a gay bookstore and bought books and books of gay erotica written by men? I have for the last 30 years, and for two men in a loving relationship, it is the acceptable standard formula. Sure, us female writers somethings get a little flowery with descriptions. Then again so does some male authors. Find any book written by Gorden Merrick, and you'll see what I mean.
It's all about formulas -- sometimes you take a chance and write outside the box, but for the most part, you stick with a proven formula that's been used and works.

Gay erotica classics with loving relationships used it and it worked. Slash fanfic since the first Kirk/Spock fics mostly stick to it too (there may have been a Lone Ranger/Tonto fic somewhere before the Trek Slash). In all fandoms, for the last 30 years. Then we got yaoi, and once again, there's the formula? Is it any surprise it's part of Torchwood slash fanfic? I've been reading and writing slash fanfic for about three decades now (yes, I'm giving away my age here. LOL!), and I see the same formula, different couple through the years.

Maybe it's time to start coming up with new formulas. I don't know, but there's a history to overcome. 'Cause I'm not saying you're wrong with your thoughts -- just that the premise is far from original or unique to Torchwood, since even the gay erotica by males have prescribed by it. Oh, and yes, that also includes emphasis on buttsecks (Check out "How Long Has This Been Going On?" by Ethan Mordden for example).

The only thing that does bother me with some fanfic (but not all of it has this) is placing Jack and Ianto in stereotypical, what I call, seme and uke roles -- Jack usually the seme, and Ianto the uke. Yet I see them both as strong, equal men, so it's fun to mix up the loving and manhandling some. I really feel like I come across a treat when I find a fic with Dominant!Ianto, because he broke away from his mold. As did Jack when he becomes Dominant!Ianto's Submissive!Jack. Do I want all top Ianto tho? No. I like to see them take turns, and mix up the love play -- from tender and soft, to raunchy and kinky. Because they both seem like that type of men to me.

[identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 07:55 am (UTC)(link)
If ever you hear me protest "No! Surely not! It cannot be! I won't have it!" etc, you can be certain I mean the opposite of what I say.

Maybe I've said this before, but I think the anal-for-vaginal thing in slash would explain the common reaction to the greenhouse scene - "What are they supposed to be doing? It looks so award!"

[identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 07:58 am (UTC)(link)
Yah, never mind lube, I always want them to be scrubbing with soap in between stuff.
ext_41651: Ianto shiny with mobile (Default)

[identity profile] fide-et-spe.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 09:02 am (UTC)(link)
I wonder if they should just put it in the author's notes to assume the lube is used? I have read some good stories where it isn't mentioned, so well written that there are no comments. Although I am thinking of perhaps less graphic stuff. I don't think the male authors I mentioned suffer from that, mmm I wonder if either the readership is different, more grown up with some authors?

[identity profile] o-melody-nelson.livejournal.com 2008-12-09 09:04 am (UTC)(link)
"Your fingers smell like my bum."

I think I love you, a little bit, for writing this. It's really about time.

Also, I think you should be metaquoated.

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