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Before I continue with my retcon...
There's a reason I stopped at Cyberwoman with my hilarious retcon, and that's because the whole Jack and Ianto story from Fragments to Cyberwoman is one that people have very many different takes on. I myself have always believed there was sex going on between Jack and Ianto from the moment we met Ianto in Everything Changes (funnily enough, at the time, I wasn't sure there was any attraction involved on Ianto's part, my views on that only started changing after TKKS).
Some things were brought up in the comments of my retcon that got me thinking yet again about that "I clean up your shit" scene in Cyberwoman. I said about it that it really works if you assume they're fucking. Which is true, there's an incredible amount of resentment coming from Ianto towards Jack in that scene, and if you read it as a scene between two sexual partners, it's a very ouchy scene. My own interpretation is that they were most definitely involved, and I have a few reasons for thinking that, and they're all to do with Ianto and why he would have sex with Jack, despite the fact that he's got a Cybergirlfriend in the basement.
I said this about Ianto's last scene in Fragments (here):
I think there's a whole other level to this scene which isn't even really about sex at all, and it's about enjoyment and fun. I don't know if you've noticed, but Ianto's having fun with Jack, catching Myfanwy, it's all adrenaline and running around and laughing, and this is a guy who, one would assume, has a cybergirlfriend IN HIS SHED as we speak. One that he's been looking after and is obviously desperate to fix since Canary Wharf happened, and since Canary Wharf happened, I can't imagine this guy's been having much fun. At all. You see, I think it's not just the fact that there's attraction and arousal going on that worries Ianto, it's the fact that he is actually having fun. His whole objective is to save Lisa, the girl he can't live without, and in saving her, or keeping her safe in any case, he may well end up proving that he CAN live without her. Which defeats the object of the exercise. Not only, I think, do his tears signify his own disgust at the levels to which he'll stoop and the fact that he might even enjoy stooping to them, but also every single one of his doubts and fears about whether saving her was actually the right thing to do. Did he do it for her or did he do it for himself? Should he have just let her go? I think this moment of doubt and tears also shows us the point at which saving Lisa to Ianto, who presumably has since Canary Wharf, been running on adrenaline and single bloody-mindedness, starts to become less of a love thing, and more of an obsession. He HAS TO save her now, in order to prove to himself that he did the right thing saving her in the first place and that he's doing the right thing in stooping to the levels he'll stoop to to save her now. He's effectively trapped himself.
I still stand by this take on Ianto's state of mind after Fragments happened, he is trapped, and feels trapped, on several levels, and I can see quite clearly how a sexual relationship would have developed between him and Jack, pre-Cyberwoman.
We see in Fragments that there is a definite sexual element to Jack and Ianto's relationship from the very beginning. And while it's clear that Jack doesn't offer Ianto the job because of that sexual element, it's obviously an element that Ianto is well aware of. I can see Ianto following through on the flirtation for a number of reasons:
1) Guilt - Ianto clearly likes Jack and feels bad about deceiving him. Now it doesn't necessarily follow that Ianto would fall into bed with Jack, but there could definitely be an element to it of Ianto not wanting to lead Jack on. And the idea that Ianto has in the back of his mind that he's doing all of this for Lisa would make it more plausible that he would be willing to take it further than flirtation. And, of course, there's the element of:
2) Distraction - Again, this is another argument that Ianto can file away in his head under the heading of Doing It For Lisa. A simple, logical need to distract Jack from the Cybergirl in the basement by whatever means necessary.
Now both of these reasons explain why Ianto would be willing to take things further, but they don't really explain why Ianto would actually want to. Which brings us to:
3) Need - One would assume that Ianto would only have sex with Jack if he genuinely wanted to (it is at least implied in the way their relationship develops that Ianto wasn't purely whoring himself out for Lisa's sake), but why would he want to? Well, the way I see it, pre-Cyberwoman Ianto is an incredibly fucked up young man, living with an incredible burden and functioning under an immense amount of pressure. That he would have a simple human need to unwind isn't exactly beyond the realms of our imagination, nor is it implausible that he would have a need for some basic human contact and comfort, given his girlfriend's suddenly metallic state. And Jack is, of course, the perfect candidate. For a start, he's there, it's not like Ianto would have a lot of spare time left between Lisa and his job to go seeking out someone to shag. And secondly, Jack is one of the most emotionally closed off people in the entire universe, capable of providing Ianto with a perfect and mutual "don't ask, don't tell" relationship in which neither party feels the need or the desire to emotionally connect and can simply get on with the business of recreational fucking. He can get his comfort without having to explain why he needs it. Perfect. Having said that, I think there's another reason, perhaps a subconscious one, which is the complete polar opposite of this reason. I personally think they both play a part.
4) Salvation - Here's how I think this one plays out. At Canary Wharf, Ianto rescues his girlfriend. He makes a spur-of-the-moment decision based on his love for her and his desire not to lose her, that permanently affects her life, her quality of life and her future. In making that decision, her fate become his responsibility, and it's highly likely that Ianto's rational mind questioned that decision constantly from that moment on, and that his guilt over it was eating away at him. He loves her, so he can't kill her (or, more importantly, he can't bring himself to be the one that makes the decision to kill her), but he can't fix her either. His love for her has trapped him. He knows Lisa's position is an unsustainable one, but in order to alter it he needs help. Along comes Jack. Now a lot of people think that Ianto has a slightly fawning attitude towards Jack, generally, and I think there is an element of hero-worship in Ianto's attitude towards Jack from the very start. I think Ianto sees Jack as his salvation, as his way out of the situation he's trapped himself in. Ianto needs help and he knows it. Now for whatever reason, Ianto, who may have been tempted to simply tell Jack about Lisa when he started at TW3, doesn't tell Jack about his predicament. And, as the situation drags on and the subterfuge becomes more and more intricate, the chances of Ianto being able to tell Jack about it, ask for help and actually receive it diminish. But the situation doesn't change, Lisa stays in an indefinite limbo state (until Ianto finds Tanizaki later) that Ianto is responsible for creating. So Ianto sleeps with Jack. For the simple reason that, underneath it all, Ianto desperately wants to be found out. He can't tell Jack anymore, but he needs Jack to know, because he needs a way out of the situation either way, fixing or death, it's a way out of the stalemate (and Ianto's probably putting his money on the fixing because he thinks Jack's a good guy, and had Jack found out before the Tanizaki mess, Jack possibly would have attempted the fixing). But lo and behold, Jack never finds out. Which brings me back to the "no questions asked" speech and how I interpret it. Ianto, in his desperation to be discovered and get help, sleeps with Jack, but still Jack never asks him about his life. Jack knows how desperate Ianto was for the job, but still Jack never asks. Ianto wants Jack to ask, to suspect, to be interested, to notice there's something off, to help, but it doesn't happen. And so, on some level, the shit cleaning speech is a low blow about Suzie and Ianto and Jack's general lack of empathy and interest in his employees, but it's also a case of genuine resentment and anger on Ianto's part towards Jack. Ianto genuinely, subconsiously or not, hoped that by sleeping with Jack, Jack would show enough of an interest in him to notice. This interpretation also sits slightly better with me when it comes to Jack actually taking Ianto back on, and not retconning him into primary school. The way I see it, Jack takes Ianto back on because he feels guilty and because he accepts that he is partly to blame for allowing the situation to escalate the way it did. Jack blames himself for not noticing.
That's my personal take on their relationship up to Cyberwoman. A bit rambly, but there you are. I shall be returing to the regularly scheduled Series One Retcon tomorrow.
Some things were brought up in the comments of my retcon that got me thinking yet again about that "I clean up your shit" scene in Cyberwoman. I said about it that it really works if you assume they're fucking. Which is true, there's an incredible amount of resentment coming from Ianto towards Jack in that scene, and if you read it as a scene between two sexual partners, it's a very ouchy scene. My own interpretation is that they were most definitely involved, and I have a few reasons for thinking that, and they're all to do with Ianto and why he would have sex with Jack, despite the fact that he's got a Cybergirlfriend in the basement.
I said this about Ianto's last scene in Fragments (here):
I think there's a whole other level to this scene which isn't even really about sex at all, and it's about enjoyment and fun. I don't know if you've noticed, but Ianto's having fun with Jack, catching Myfanwy, it's all adrenaline and running around and laughing, and this is a guy who, one would assume, has a cybergirlfriend IN HIS SHED as we speak. One that he's been looking after and is obviously desperate to fix since Canary Wharf happened, and since Canary Wharf happened, I can't imagine this guy's been having much fun. At all. You see, I think it's not just the fact that there's attraction and arousal going on that worries Ianto, it's the fact that he is actually having fun. His whole objective is to save Lisa, the girl he can't live without, and in saving her, or keeping her safe in any case, he may well end up proving that he CAN live without her. Which defeats the object of the exercise. Not only, I think, do his tears signify his own disgust at the levels to which he'll stoop and the fact that he might even enjoy stooping to them, but also every single one of his doubts and fears about whether saving her was actually the right thing to do. Did he do it for her or did he do it for himself? Should he have just let her go? I think this moment of doubt and tears also shows us the point at which saving Lisa to Ianto, who presumably has since Canary Wharf, been running on adrenaline and single bloody-mindedness, starts to become less of a love thing, and more of an obsession. He HAS TO save her now, in order to prove to himself that he did the right thing saving her in the first place and that he's doing the right thing in stooping to the levels he'll stoop to to save her now. He's effectively trapped himself.
I still stand by this take on Ianto's state of mind after Fragments happened, he is trapped, and feels trapped, on several levels, and I can see quite clearly how a sexual relationship would have developed between him and Jack, pre-Cyberwoman.
We see in Fragments that there is a definite sexual element to Jack and Ianto's relationship from the very beginning. And while it's clear that Jack doesn't offer Ianto the job because of that sexual element, it's obviously an element that Ianto is well aware of. I can see Ianto following through on the flirtation for a number of reasons:
1) Guilt - Ianto clearly likes Jack and feels bad about deceiving him. Now it doesn't necessarily follow that Ianto would fall into bed with Jack, but there could definitely be an element to it of Ianto not wanting to lead Jack on. And the idea that Ianto has in the back of his mind that he's doing all of this for Lisa would make it more plausible that he would be willing to take it further than flirtation. And, of course, there's the element of:
2) Distraction - Again, this is another argument that Ianto can file away in his head under the heading of Doing It For Lisa. A simple, logical need to distract Jack from the Cybergirl in the basement by whatever means necessary.
Now both of these reasons explain why Ianto would be willing to take things further, but they don't really explain why Ianto would actually want to. Which brings us to:
3) Need - One would assume that Ianto would only have sex with Jack if he genuinely wanted to (it is at least implied in the way their relationship develops that Ianto wasn't purely whoring himself out for Lisa's sake), but why would he want to? Well, the way I see it, pre-Cyberwoman Ianto is an incredibly fucked up young man, living with an incredible burden and functioning under an immense amount of pressure. That he would have a simple human need to unwind isn't exactly beyond the realms of our imagination, nor is it implausible that he would have a need for some basic human contact and comfort, given his girlfriend's suddenly metallic state. And Jack is, of course, the perfect candidate. For a start, he's there, it's not like Ianto would have a lot of spare time left between Lisa and his job to go seeking out someone to shag. And secondly, Jack is one of the most emotionally closed off people in the entire universe, capable of providing Ianto with a perfect and mutual "don't ask, don't tell" relationship in which neither party feels the need or the desire to emotionally connect and can simply get on with the business of recreational fucking. He can get his comfort without having to explain why he needs it. Perfect. Having said that, I think there's another reason, perhaps a subconscious one, which is the complete polar opposite of this reason. I personally think they both play a part.
4) Salvation - Here's how I think this one plays out. At Canary Wharf, Ianto rescues his girlfriend. He makes a spur-of-the-moment decision based on his love for her and his desire not to lose her, that permanently affects her life, her quality of life and her future. In making that decision, her fate become his responsibility, and it's highly likely that Ianto's rational mind questioned that decision constantly from that moment on, and that his guilt over it was eating away at him. He loves her, so he can't kill her (or, more importantly, he can't bring himself to be the one that makes the decision to kill her), but he can't fix her either. His love for her has trapped him. He knows Lisa's position is an unsustainable one, but in order to alter it he needs help. Along comes Jack. Now a lot of people think that Ianto has a slightly fawning attitude towards Jack, generally, and I think there is an element of hero-worship in Ianto's attitude towards Jack from the very start. I think Ianto sees Jack as his salvation, as his way out of the situation he's trapped himself in. Ianto needs help and he knows it. Now for whatever reason, Ianto, who may have been tempted to simply tell Jack about Lisa when he started at TW3, doesn't tell Jack about his predicament. And, as the situation drags on and the subterfuge becomes more and more intricate, the chances of Ianto being able to tell Jack about it, ask for help and actually receive it diminish. But the situation doesn't change, Lisa stays in an indefinite limbo state (until Ianto finds Tanizaki later) that Ianto is responsible for creating. So Ianto sleeps with Jack. For the simple reason that, underneath it all, Ianto desperately wants to be found out. He can't tell Jack anymore, but he needs Jack to know, because he needs a way out of the situation either way, fixing or death, it's a way out of the stalemate (and Ianto's probably putting his money on the fixing because he thinks Jack's a good guy, and had Jack found out before the Tanizaki mess, Jack possibly would have attempted the fixing). But lo and behold, Jack never finds out. Which brings me back to the "no questions asked" speech and how I interpret it. Ianto, in his desperation to be discovered and get help, sleeps with Jack, but still Jack never asks him about his life. Jack knows how desperate Ianto was for the job, but still Jack never asks. Ianto wants Jack to ask, to suspect, to be interested, to notice there's something off, to help, but it doesn't happen. And so, on some level, the shit cleaning speech is a low blow about Suzie and Ianto and Jack's general lack of empathy and interest in his employees, but it's also a case of genuine resentment and anger on Ianto's part towards Jack. Ianto genuinely, subconsiously or not, hoped that by sleeping with Jack, Jack would show enough of an interest in him to notice. This interpretation also sits slightly better with me when it comes to Jack actually taking Ianto back on, and not retconning him into primary school. The way I see it, Jack takes Ianto back on because he feels guilty and because he accepts that he is partly to blame for allowing the situation to escalate the way it did. Jack blames himself for not noticing.
That's my personal take on their relationship up to Cyberwoman. A bit rambly, but there you are. I shall be returing to the regularly scheduled Series One Retcon tomorrow.
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Now, it isn't that I'm not convinced. because,honestly, I actually have no official stance until cannon throws us a friggin bone on this question.
the only thing about what you've typed up, is that none of it necessarily leads to sleeping together.
Although, the argument that Ianto wants to be found out is very compelling, most of the things you've laid out are great reasons why they would've been sleeping together, but it's not the only conclusion to be drawn.
And that's just the thing with these two, isn't it? There is no definite conclusion we can draw, because if there was, we'dve drawn it already.
the only thing that's actually standing in my way of being completely on board with the side that they've been sleeping together all along are two things.
1) I'm actually not entirely convinced that the earlier dynamic between the characters is that of two people who have been sleeping together. I need to rewatch earlier episodes to really investigate. But, you act differently towards someone you're sleeping with, even if it is kept under wraps, and I'm not sure that kind of "chemistry" is there with the two of them.
2) I am actually not totally convinced that Jack would not have known about the cyberwoman in his basement if he WAS sleeping with Ianto.
Allow me to explain.
In my opinion, Jack is the kind of character who uses sex as a primary communication tool. This doesn't necessarily mean sleeping with someone, but the innuendo, kissing, touch, etc... Jack knows what's what when it comes to sex, and imo, is probably most emotionally intuitive when he is being of a sensual/sexual nature with someone. see, yes, jack can have sex with out all that emotional stuff, like it's just sex, but we know from doctor who and TW that jack has used seduction/sex to get information as well as just for fun. Just because he'll sleep with anything that's gorgeous doesn't mean he doesn't learn a thing or two about them. just because no emotional connection is being made, doesn't mean that you don't notice something about someone. And I am not convinced that Ianto is so great of a liar that he would be able to hide Lisa if he was sleeping with Jack. Especially if you assume that Ianto is new to homosexual sex and Especially if you assume that they slept with each other repeatedly.
I think, since I agree with you that Ianto was going through so many emotions and conflicts and had himself stuck in such a stalemate, that Jack actually would've picked up on the fact that something was always seemingly wrong with Ianto when they slept together. Cause, since sex is such a release, I don't think Ianto really would've been able to hide it all away.
That being said, you are correct, that line Ianto has is waaay powerful if the two of them are sexual partners at the time. (when was the last time you asked me about my life) It is mad powerful. However, 1) I'm not actually ready to give the writers that much credit, and 2) there are other explanations for the reactions.
But i really am just kind of playing devil's advocate, because...i can? YOu've laid out a fantastic argument, and whether or not I think they slept together prior to cyberwoman, the way you've discussed ianto's emotional state at the time i totally agree with. poor guy was really stuck in a stalemate. great analysis.
crazytook
no subject
That being said, you are correct, that line Ianto has is waaay powerful if the two of them are sexual partners at the time. (when was the last time you asked me about my life) It is mad powerful. However, 1) I'm not actually ready to give the writers that much credit, and 2) there are other explanations for the reactions.
I disagree, actually. If they were in a sexual relationship, it would have had to be a completely unemotional one, because while Ianto may have physically cheated on Lisa while she was down in the basement I don't think he would ever have become emotionally interested in Jack, or at least not entertained Jack with such notions. Therefore it would seem a little odd for Ianto to call Jack out on being emotionally distant from him if they made it clear from the outset that their relationship was purely sexual. It's a different thing entirely if you think there was any emotional aspect to their pre-Cyberwoman relationship, but I personally don't think there would have been, therefore the "when did you ever ask me anything about my life" line doesn't have a lot more emotional impact in my view if they had or hadn't been in a sexual relationship at that point.
no subject
huh. that's interesting. i didn't think of it like that. i was kind of going off of my gut reaction with that one. i guess i was going with the idea that ianto may have gotten attached then he d be willing to admit if they re sleeping together, and that throwing that line out at him is a reference to such a common move for a jerk to make to someone he's sleeping with.
but you do have a point, Jack is the kind for ground rules, and it would've been clear to both that it was "don't ask dont tell"
i guess it becomes more powerful if you look at it from the point of view that ianto WANTED to get caught. but i could just be making that up right now, also, and be totally dead wrong.
no subject
Yours is an interesting argument, though. The way I see it is like this, and it goes back to that crying thing in Fragments, Ianto and Jack develop, for reasons one to three, a no-strings-attached sexual relationship. Thing is, Ianto doesn't actually do no-strings-attached sex, he's not very good at it, but he's convincing himself that he's doing it for Lisa. Ianto actually thinks he's above meaningless sex, he's better than that, and subconsiously he's hoping that Jack is too and he'll be found out, but it turns out Jack isn't (or maybe he is?? it's not really clear at this point in the narrative). Culminating in the shit speech, which is Ianto's anger at Jack for not being perceptive enough, but, like you say, if Ianto's telling Jack off for not being emotionally involved with him, Ianto, at the same time must be acknowledging that he had an emotional connection with Jack. As soon as Ianto says it, "no questions asked, that's the way you like it," Jack not only puts his gun down, but he actually puts it away. My overly analytical mind says that's because Jack has just understood the implications of what Ianto actually said.
My overly analytical mind is full of shit, obviously, but it passes the time.
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yeah, i don't get those who don't think there's something that never would've happened where the janto is concerned. i mean, basically janto can go anyway you want. and yes, pun intended.
but until the show throws us some canon into there relationship, anything pretty much goes.
and you know, i watched TW after it'd all aired, so i basically watched the show in like, three days. (and by "show" i mean the first season) so, I've actually been trying to remember when it was I first assumed they were sleeping together. it seems so long ago...
crazytook
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no subject
and i just gotta ask, since you brought up the thing about S2 Jack, does anyone else here notice that when Jack tells past stories about his love life, he almost always refers to a past "Boyfriend" that he once had, (like the one with no mouth...) and rarely ever a girlfriend? (and i say rarely, because i'm not 100 percent positive that he's never referred to past girlfriends)
anyways.... just something i noticed a while ago.
:)
-crazytook
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It's here. and a lot is actually in response to stuff you've said, whether or not you were trying to make a point or whatever, just that your anaylses (anaylsi??) got me thinking.
http://crazytook.livejournal.com/1726.html