tencrush: (jackanto subtext)
tencrush ([personal profile] tencrush) wrote2008-04-28 12:10 pm

I JUST REALISED!!

WHY I HATE FROM OUT OF THE RAIN SO MUCH.

It just... so little thought went into this episode when it comes to characterisation, like I and many other people have mentioned, it just DIDN'T MATTER who was the centrepiece of the story, there were no character-related reasons for it to be Ianto, it could just as easily have been Tosh, or anyone. The writing focussed SO MUCH on getting the plot across to the viewer (and IT EVEN SUCKED AT THAT), that no thought went into which character was fulfilling what role.

IF I COULD REWRITE FROM OUT OF THE RAIN, it would go like this, and it's really very simple and it solves a myriad of problems of exposition and such whilst at the same time dealing with some bits and bobs of characterisation and answering some questions that are still mulling around in the minds of your average avid fan:

OPENING SCENE: Carnies. Weirdness. Spooky, yah, cut to credits.
NEXT BIT: Guy does stuff with film, Jack hears spooky music in the Hub, asks Ianto WTF? Ianto tells him to STFU and hands him his coat. Jack and Ianto go to Electro for night out.
REST OF EPISODE: Same, with slightly less exposition needed due to Jack already being clued up, giving us a bit more time to let the baddies actually be scary.


SIMPLE AS THAT. Seriously, if anyone had put any thought into this episode from a character arc perspective, that's how it would have played out. It would have shown us quite cleanly that Jack and Ianto do indeed have a relationship that involves more than sex in the Hub, which I believe is what the writers would like us to believe. At the same time, the resulting spookiness would have amusingly shown us how patently impossible it is for these two to keep their work and private lives separate, which would have been a nice segue into the shagging in the Hub in Adrift (without the shagging in the Hub coming across as QUITE SO CARNAL, but more of an acknowledgement that they're really just going to have to get it where and when they can.) Clean. Simple. Easy as that. AMINORITE? YUS?

off_coloratura: (Doctor Who - Whatever)

[personal profile] off_coloratura 2008-04-28 10:39 am (UTC)(link)
Oh my god, if they had used From Out Of The Rain to develop the Jack and Ianto relationship while upping the creepy, I think it would have been my favorite of the season. What a wasted, wasted opportunity.

When the hell are you going to start working for BBC Wales already?

[identity profile] doyle_sb4.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:44 am (UTC)(link)
no thought went into which character was fulfilling what role.

I said at the time that it seemed like a season 1 script where the writer had crossed out 'Gwen' and written 'Ianto' on half the lines - apparently it's now been said in interviews that Ianto was indeed given some of Gwen's scenes and lines in the episode. It really shows.

[identity profile] antelope-writes.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:58 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah. Give JB and GDL credit, though, for managing to make it one of the more interesting ones in the episode.

[identity profile] doyle_sb4.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:59 am (UTC)(link)
it's something a slightly more thorough and thought-through rewrite would have fixed.

So much of that episode's like that; I really wish someone had said "you know, the nurse treating the kid just happening to have worked with a previous victim and spilling her guts with no regard for patient confidentiality because Jack says a perfectly normal phrase; dude, that's really lazy writing. Couldn't this nurse hear about the kid, put two and two together, and come to the hospital to see if there was someone she could speak to about the case? Or anything else that doesn't rely on a massively convenient coincidence?"

[identity profile] rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Those types of interviews scare me because it makes me realize that I'm invested in a character and a relationship that appear to be just afterthoughts.

Bloody Ianto. Why does he have to be so awesome?

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-04-29 04:55 am (UTC)(link)
'Why does he have to be so awesome?'
Because GDL makes him that way. He was the one who came up for the idea of crying at the end of his flashback in Fragments, after all.

[identity profile] rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com 2008-04-29 10:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Really? I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing!

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-04-30 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
It's in this Magazine Article posted by [livejournal.com profile] diablo_dancer.

Chris Chinbnall on Ianto's story in Fragments: "...Gareth [David-Lloyd] added a wonderful depth to it, when, unseen by Jack, he starts to cry at the end."

This just proves that Gareth really does know Ianto better than the writers. If you take that scene out the entire flashback has a very different feel.

[identity profile] rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com 2008-04-30 12:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. I think I need to stop reading interviews. They didn't decide until the start of filming to change from killing Ianto to killing Owen??? They really didn't have a storyline planned for Ianto this series, did they? Sex with Jack would have been over barely after it started. Adam was originally episode 10? No crying in Fragments? Wow, that would have made Ianto pretty damned cold. Gwen's lines were assigned to Ianto in FOOTR? I guess characters really are interchangeable.

It scares me that we really do owe Ianto to Gareth, not the writers. I'd be really frightened for series 3 if I knew Chibnall was involved, frankly.

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-04-30 03:40 pm (UTC)(link)
'No crying in Fragments? Wow, that would have made Ianto pretty damned cold.'
Yeah, Ianto's not cold by any stretch of the imagination. At least Gareth knows that, even if the writers don't.

'Gwen's lines were assigned to Ianto in FOOTR? I guess characters really are interchangeable.'
*nods* The first rule of writing is you write your plot around the characters NOT the other way around.

'I'd be really frightened for series 3 if I knew Chibnall was involved, frankly.'
I figure it can go one of two ways; either they replace Chris with someone who knows what their doing (maybe they'll finally have a show bible) or the writing gets even worse (I don't see how that possible).

'They really didn't have a storyline planned for Ianto this series, did they?'
I'm hoping they give him a storyline in series 3 but I'm not counting on it. The only character the writers really seem to care about is Gwen.

[identity profile] antelope-writes.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:57 am (UTC)(link)
I think what bothered me the most is how stifling the entire script was. Let's face it, EVERYBODY in the main TW cast can act their socks off (although not necessarily in every combination)...and they were so tied up in cheesy lines and campy scripts that they couldn't actually do anything. And it was the worst kind of camp, the camp that doesn't know it's camp and takes itself seriously, unlike the high camp of SB where they just had all kinds of fun with it. It's like the script thinks it is saying "I'm an artist!" when in reality it, "no, honey, you work at a shop."

On the rare occasion that the actors got some script they could *do* something with, like going to see Christina in the hospital or talking in Jack's office, it was lovely and sweet. Unfortunately that was all of, what, five minutes out of a 50-minute episode?

[identity profile] tya-rc.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 11:03 am (UTC)(link)
Well, your theory is totally validated by the fact that Ianto was given lines that were initially Gwen's. The characters were considered perfectly interchangeable for the plot, indeed.

(Except that joke about Owen, which would have FAILED on any other character, of course.)

[identity profile] overlady-hikki.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 11:09 am (UTC)(link)
Have you read [livejournal.com profile] sam_storyteller's re-write of From Out Of The Rain?

(http://sam-storyteller.livejournal.com/127247.html)

Own opinion: I haven't quite figured out for myself why I dislike it so. But your reasoning makes sense (does it ever not?)

Edited because I am shit at HTML tags.

[identity profile] musicianatheart.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 07:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I love that rewrite so much, I basically consider it the real one in my mind. a lot of times I have problems remembering what happened in the original. I'm not sure what it is about it that I dislike about it, but I just can't find myself interested in it at all.

[identity profile] solitary-summer.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 11:11 am (UTC)(link)
I'd have loved that version. It's not that I expect them to live in each others pockets and never do anything on their own, but this is something that clearly means something to Ianto, and he managed to convince a less than enthusiastic Gwen, but didn't even ask Jack? That's a bit weird.

[identity profile] rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 12:47 pm (UTC)(link)
It strikes me that either Jack/Ianto really isn't that important to the show (or all of the writers would at least be on board enough to write it with some relative consistency) or there is deep division in the writing staff about the relationship (and therefore some of the writers choose to subvert or ignore it).

I recall the writing on BtVS for Buffy/Spike taking on very different characteristics depending on whether the writer in question supported the relationship.

[identity profile] erinnthered.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I think a poster a while back who was in the know pointed out that the script writers are not given a background on the characters before writing their scripts. All the scripts are commissions since they don't have staff writers. Buffy did have staff writers.

It really all comes down to RTD and Chibnall for not preparing the writers, and not either hiring competent script editors or not empowering them to do what they need to do.

[identity profile] rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. That's an interesting fact about how the scripts are commissioned. I agree with you about Chibnall. I wonder if his replacement will do any better or if in a few years we'll be longing for the return of the Chibnall era?

[identity profile] nobleroman1.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 11:36 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, yes, I do love your version.

I found it bit extreme that because he heard some spooky music, Jack went tearing off in search of Ianto because of his local knowledge. That coupled with the way Jack was shown speeding through the streets of Cardiff to get to the Electro was simply drama for the sake of drama.

[identity profile] justinej.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 12:27 pm (UTC)(link)
I am so with you on this. It could be removed from the series altogether and I wouldn't miss it! Such a crying shame and an opportunity missed. That's the problem with having lots of different writers, although everyone else seems to be on the same page.

Two of the writers at the rift have been commissioned to write the next two books which should be brilliant because they have a good understanding of the programme now.

[identity profile] rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 12:50 pm (UTC)(link)
On second viewing, I didn't dislike it as much. In fact, it's got a lot of nice Jack/Ianto interaction that shows how well they work together as a team. I always attributed Ianto's over the top emotion as the fact that he functioned in the 'Gwen role' as the 'heart' of the team since it was a Gwen-lite episode.
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[identity profile] iko.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 01:40 pm (UTC)(link)
What I loved about this specific episode was the imagery. I thought it was quite rich and I felt there was a lot of effort to make it really atmospheric. I liked that it tried to present the story from Ianto's perspective, but I do think that it felt very generic (a quick substitution of Gwen for Ianto and still have it make sense is not good).

I still think and like the idea that the story could be told from Ianto's perspective and trace his contributions to solving a case. It needs to commit to it, though. Really follow him, so we don't get conversations that Ianto isn't privy to (with exception of the baddie POV).

I do love this idea:

Jack hears spooky music in the Hub, asks Ianto WTF? Ianto tells him to STFU and hands him his coat. Jack and Ianto go to Electro for night out.

I think very much in character for Ianto and Jack. And you're really right about too much time is spent with Jack trying to be clued up.

Rewatching bits, Jack offers almost no information about his time with the carnies and no resolution to how he got out of being involved with them. That did bothered me. It's almost like there's too much material and they are trying to make the storyline believable in only a single episode.

Also, the whole "Ianto, I need your local knowledge" is really... it doesn't make sense. Ianto's been in Cardiff for how long compared to Jack?

So many nifty ideas, just not brought together well.

the resulting spookiness would have amusingly shown us how patently impossible it is for these two to keep their work and private lives separate

Yeap! It would make for an interesting contrast to Gwen/Owen last season.
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[identity profile] iko.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 04:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Good Lord, that's never even occurred to me. How shit am I?

The lack of continuity/sensibility from one episode to the next really bugs me in Torchwood. (I have it on good authority that the show lacks a writer's "Bible", which probably accounts for the uneven characterization and lack of depth.)

this episode also being the one that cemented my theory that Ianto's family are all dead

Oh definitely.
I get the impression that Ianto has very little to lose. That makes him delightfully dangerous.
Edited 2008-04-28 16:36 (UTC)
ext_3370: (Default)

[identity profile] iko.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 05:42 pm (UTC)(link)
*mind boggles*

Sometimes, watching Torchwood is like watching a RPG where the characters have interesting backgrounds and the set-ups provide great potential but then are given to writers players who chose to ignore it or forget what their character sheets say.

"Dude, your character is supposed to be gregarious!"

"Is she?" Writer Player reviews character sheet. "Oh yeah, I forgot."

Argh.

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 06:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah. As much as I love this show the writings not all that great. If it wasn't for the casts awesome acting (even the minor character are great) I don't think I'd watch this show.

[identity profile] rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe we'll get lucky and the next showrunner will actually care about things like characterization and plot.

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-04-29 04:17 am (UTC)(link)
I hope so, I really do.

[identity profile] erinnthered.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Sometimes, watching Torchwood is like watching a RPG where the characters have interesting backgrounds and the set-ups provide great potential but then are given to writers players who chose to ignore it or forget what their character sheets say.

I think GDL said as much at The Rift this weekend. I believe he used the word "rubbish," in fact.

[identity profile] love-jackianto.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 03:27 pm (UTC)(link)
'...that no thought went into which character was fulfilling what role.'
That's what I said when the episode first aired. There was so little character development that it could have been written for ANY sci-fi show(or even a supernatural show). It was billed as a Ianto-centric episode but it wasn't, there was more character development for him in Fragments. I just hope they don't get Hammond to replace CC.

Love your rewrite, if only you could write for the show. They already 'borrowed' you Ianto!ManWhoreSpy idea.

(Anonymous) 2008-04-28 06:32 pm (UTC)(link)
"It was billed as a Ianto-centric episode but it wasn't, there was more character development for him in Fragments."

Word!

[identity profile] antelope-writes.livejournal.com 2008-04-29 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the episode with the most character development for Ianto hands-down was Adam.

(Anonymous) 2008-04-28 06:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Good idea. I always fancied the idea that, due to Ianto being quite affected by what happened we could have had him and Jack talking (poss with touching) in an emotionally intimate way at the end instead of the another old roll of film / Jack hears music, how creepy (not) stuff. Something like the end of Sleeper with Jack / Gwen or Captain Jack Harkness with Jack / Tosh. Your idea of them doing something at the beginning's probably better though.

[identity profile] erinnthered.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree that the 'date gone bad' scenario would have been much more appealing.

I do think that the producers lucked out on EM not being able to do those scenes. Given the way her character developed for the rest of the season, it would have contributed to her Mary-Sueness. Instead, we got a moment between Jack and his boyfriend. As it should be, really.

I still dislike SB more. I don't like a plot that requires one of the main characters to be a selfish cow in order for it to work. There is no reason that a script like that should open up with a main character looking like the bad guy. That was horrible. Lazy is too kind.

[identity profile] rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 10:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I give EM a lot of credit. Between Meat and SB, the writers really created a situation where Gwen could have been loathed by much of the audience. But I think EM has invested so much emotion in her scenes with KO that the Gwen/Rhys relationship has saved Gwen as a character. I just cheered when I heard her say that Gwen loves Rhys from the top of her head to the tips of her toes. EM sounds absolutely charming.

[identity profile] erinnthered.livejournal.com 2008-04-29 12:37 am (UTC)(link)
I totally agree!

Until The Rift I wasn't sure how she saw things. I didn't know whether she was playing both sides, or trying working on the Rhys relationship. It seems was the latter, and I am happy for it. I think she needs to step up and be more firm with the writers. She could easily push for less of a selfish, Super!Gwen type. On first impression, it seems she's not like that at all.

That's the funny thing about SB. I did like Gwen in it, except the writers tried really hard to make me hate her by putting her in that reprehensible situation. I blame the writers entirely for that mess. It's the premise that makes me cringe.

[identity profile] nobleroman1.livejournal.com 2008-04-28 11:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Could you clarify the "EM not being able to do those scenes" comment? Was she not available to do the scenes or did the show decide to give the scenes to GDL? I believe I read an interview by CT in which she stated that when the writers compose the scripts, they do so in generic manner, i.e., there is no specific character in mind.

[identity profile] erinnthered.livejournal.com 2008-04-29 12:40 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not going to comment on Treganna's method, except to say that that might explain a lot of what I don't like about some of her episodes.

EM wasn't available because she was shooting another episode. Ianto's role was increased. He was still the guy who went to the cinema, he just wasn't the guy in the boardroom scene.

[identity profile] nobleroman1.livejournal.com 2008-04-29 01:18 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks for clarifying. I'm going to have to rewatch that boardroom scene.