tencrush | Reflections on Day Four...

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Reflections on Day Four...

I knew Ianto was going to die. I said it so often, I TOLD EVERYONE so often because I knew it was going to happen and I wanted to save myself, and everyone else, the heartache. It was inevitable that he would die, and in the end he got a pretty good death, he wasn't alone, he got his answer, in a way, though I'm still pissed Jack couldn't just say the fucking words already, and I'm pissed at Jack for a lot of things because I've always thought Ianto deserved... more, somehow. But then I've always LOVED Ianto. I've said that many times, I've never been this fond of and invested in a fictional character IN MY LIFE, and I'm sure I'll spend the next few weeks and months attempting to figure out WHY THAT IS, and why I'm a grown woman who has has two hours' sleep and is still crying now. Because that's just fucking weird.

My biggest problem, and the thing I think I find the most awful is the thing I've always found awful from the start and that's not that Jack couldn't say the words, or that Jack couldn't be fucked to just tell Rhys to shove his beans up his arse, it's the fact that Jack KNEW he didn't want to do this again, and he KNEW he wanted to keep people at a distance, and yet he allowed Ianto into his bed and sat back and WATCHED him fall in love, and I think maybe if Jack hadn't been Ianto's boss, that would have bothered me less, but Jack WAS Ianto's boss and it DOES bother me. So... yeah. I still have that same old problem with that.

As far as the story goes, there's only one thing that really bothers me about all this and that is that I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE PLAN WAS. Everyone seemed so adamant about letting Jack go in there, I don't understand what Jack was going to do apart from tell it to go fuck itself. Which is nice for Jack, because that gives him closure for 1965, but really, considering what happened in that room, that would appear to have been it. Please let Jack Harkness talk to it so he can get closure and piss it off. And get his trusty sidekick killed. It just... it's MORE than just being pointless, it seems almost selfish and from a writing point of view... contrived, as in this-is-the-scene-where-Jack-gets-closure-and-Ianto-dies-and-that's-why-this-scene-happens. I just don't really get it.

I've not been this upset in a long time, and I guess somebody somewhere deserves kudos for affecting me this much. At the moment I just don't really know who that is. And right now, I'm still just feeling like I want to kill that somebody. With that big fake-out gun.

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The minute Ianto walked inthe the Alien Chamber of death WITHOUT Gwen, I knew he wa a goner. I figured both Gwen and ianto wouldn't be killed, so when it was jsut Ianto and Jack, alarm bells began ringing. Why take a vulnerable human being to confront an invulnerable alien who can control minds and whatnot?

And I second your question. What was the bloody plan? Shoot the alien witha gun? Or did they just want to stand up to the thing to make a point? And I'm also bugged because I think Ianto was basically fridged like a women in a comic book. He died so we could see what can hurt an immortal---torture and the death of loved ones. Ianto also died so Jack would punished for his 1965 bastardy. I wish Ianto could have gone out fighting like Tosh and Owen.

" It just... it's MORE than just being pointless, it seems almost selfish and from a writing point of view... contrived, as in this-is-the-scene-where-Jack-gets-closure-and-Ianto-dies-and-that's-why-this-scene-happens. I just don't really get it. "

And this is why I felt Ianto's death is anticlimactic and pointless. Tencrush, I always like your analysis. You said that was a good death. For himself maybe, but I can't say the same from the third person's point of view. When you get a chance and are in the mood, please elaborate on that, maybe you can convince me to look it in a brighter light. Since I really don't think he's coming back, and that death was just not as grand as Tosh and Owen's exit. Sweet maybe, stirring even, but certainly not as majestic as Exit Wound.

Also, is this the final season of TW and SJA? With RTD leaving and a new Doctor coming in, the new showrunners probably don't want to deal with Rusty's flotsam.

Allegedly Russell's on board for a TW S4, and I can see, from what I know of Day Five, how this a setup for a Jack-lite Torchwood Starring Gwen Cooper on BBC1. And really, considering the viewing figures, that'll probably happen, and the, say, 500000 old fans who are really quite pissed off about this turn of events don't amount to much compared to the 5 million new viewers this miniseries has brought in, who would, one assumes, watch S4.

Edited 2009-07-10 06:53 (UTC)

Like I said, for me Ianto was always the guy who deserved slightly better than what he got. He deserved more out of life and more out of Jack and more respect from his colleagues and really he deserved to go out in a blaze of glory. He didn't and in a way that seems oddly fitting to me. I HATE IT and I hate them for doing it to him, but I've always HATED a lot of things that were done to him, so no real change there. That's how I feel at the moment, but it'll probably take me well over a week to actually be able to think about it coherently.

Sigh... "a blaze of glory" well said. That's what I think Ianto deserved as well, a sacrifice of his own choice, a battle he actually gets to fight... a majestic exit not an anticlimactic one like this. I would like to think this was the evidence that Ianto's story is yet to be over, but with the impression I got from RTD's past work, I can't be that optimistic.

As good as Gwen was in season 3, she was not a stand along heroine materiel, not chic/cool/psychotic/weird enough.

US TV in the past couple of year has been summoned up a pretty good pattern for a proper action-girl, Gwen is no where near the pattern. I don't understand why Russell is so obsessed with this idea of "ordinary female became extraordinary due to one male influence". That's so... 20th Century.

I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE PLAN WAS. Everyone seemed so adamant about letting Jack go in there, I don't understand what Jack was going to do apart from tell it to go fuck itself.

^yeah, that

IT JUST MAKES THE WHOLE THING SO POINTLESS.

if they were trying to make the "fleeting meaninglessness of life in tw" the point, then they failed on that score, too

Man, they failed on a lot of points.

it's mightily disappointing, b/c i think the rest of it has been pretty strong so far (i had a few nitpicks that i willingly overlooked, but now I DO NOT CARE ANYMORE)

*firmly lodged in Denial*

~~*which is somewhere down the road from surprising, nay, embarrassing levels of Grief*~~

I TOLD YOU, KATE. I told you Russell would do this to us but you did not believe me. Do a HORRIBLE THING TO A LIKEABLE CHARACTER TO PROVE HOW MUCH EMO MANPAIN OUR PROTAGONIST IS IN and how much their life sucks, so we shall feel sorry for them and love them. I HATED him for doing it to Donna for no real reason and I HATE him even more now for doing it AGAIN. I have no words. And I'm STILL FUCKING CRYING, my kids think I'm broken.

IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE IN STORY TERMS

Admittedly, I am clinging to a matchstick here, given which show we're talking about, but it DOESN'T.

Don't forget you'll probably get Jack in the last Doctor Who episodes with 10. Probably cheesely going heeeello to anything that moves and fawning over the Doctor who'll treat him like crap again. :(

No, it really doesn't. It is GRATUITOUS DEATH, it really is, there is no... reason for it apart from it just being there.

I wish I could laugh that off, but yeah, that is indeed what will happen.

Gratuitous has been the word I have been saying to myself all night and this morning. I can't see how it's helped move the story forward, I really can't.

And I'm still crying, for myself, Ianto and Gareth, I keep switching when I think of it. And I've watched the whole DW verse since it started way back when and I've not cried this much at the deaths of doctors or companions. I think the kudos should go to Gareth for making us love Ianto, but please don't kill him.

I know where the story's going and it just makes it seem all the more gratuitous to me. But I'll get my real anger on tomorrow about that, I guess.

You're braver than me, I don't think I can watch tonight. I feel like I'm letting Ianto down if I don't, but it's hard.

I can't shake the idea that Day 5 will go something like this if Ianto doesn't get resurrected - (1) the planet will be saved at the last minute but I don't really care how, (2) Gwen will decide that, with Ianto dead and her new baby to protect, she will leave Torchwood 3 (with or without recton, don't know, don't care) and (3) Jack stands alone at the end, opening up season 4 to be the 'Jack finds a new team, or a new team finds Jack' story.
I can't see Gwen staying, with a new baby, and I can't see even Rusty being brave enough to kill it off in the final episode.

Ah God, no, Russell's way more manipulative than all that. There'll be a lovely twist which will make Ianto's death even more pointless in storytelling terms. I won't spoil you, but seriously, fuck Russell HARD.

It is not usually my way to do this but I am sending you a virtual one-armed hug. I am a bit down about the whole thing too. Do they realise that they've killed off the best character? What's going to happen to the programme now? It will be shit won't it? I'm kind of hoping there is no next series.

There probably IS a next series, the ratings have been phenomonal, so us, what, half a million guys who watched it from the beginning and are devastated don't really amount to much in the scheme of things. There's been a distincly Jack-less vibe to these four episodes so far, certainly in terms of him-working-WITH-the-rest-of-the-team and there are obviously plans afoot for a Gwen Cooper-based Torchwood S4 for all those shiny new viewers. They can have it, we can complain all we like and nobody will give a rat's arse. Such is television.

IANTO.

FUCK-OFF HUGE GUN.

DIDN'T HAPPEN. WHY. WHY DIDN'T IT HAPPEN. WHY. WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT TO US?!

Still in shock - missed it last night and only just watched it and NOOOOO IANTO! Am not watching beyond the end of this series.

The gun? Oh, that was just our little joke. Funny wasn't it?

*assumes murderous psychotic persona and hunts down everyone responsible*

Ianto's death scene feels like one of those things where they just worked backwards from the idea that they were going to kill him to cause Jack pain rather than allowing his death to grow organically from the story.

I think the fact that it had Jack dying after Ianto and then waking up to dead Ianto (with less trauma than usual although I guess that will be put down by the writers to the method of the kill), plus the little echoes of Cyberman in how Jack was holding Ianto but getting a different result...it almost feels to me as if that scene popped into RTD's (or whoever's) head as some sort of grand romantic scene with clever echoes of when Ianto was originally supposed to die rather than being something that would make sense for the characters to do in terms of what was going on in the story at that moment in time.

If I don't remember to say this later, let me thank you now for all your great writing over the years about the show. I could see the writing on the wall during S2 when the romance never played out the way they were playing it in the media and after my experience with BtVS, I could sense my favorite character would come to an unhappy (for me) end so I've been keeping my distance. Hell, the writing was on the wall when we saw what they did to Donna. Thank god I did step away or I'd be the same wreck I was when I was spoiled for Spike's death. Even at a distance, though, this hurts.

Thank you, that's very sweet of you to say. I've invested nearly three years of my life into this show and primarily this character and I'm feeling really fucking numb at the moment, I don't really know what I'm going to do with myself from now on. That's pathetic, but true.

I agree with you on the ooh-this-is-a-great-death-scene thing. It's like they wrote it and then just hammered it into the story somewhere, fuck it.

I DO NOT CARE ANYMORE

This.

As a Spuffy survivor, I've direct experience with this because I had a very close circle of friends that had to travel this road, too. All I can tell you is that:

a. you're not crazy to have devoted years to a character
b. you have every right to your grief
c. time will eventually heal the wound although it may take more time than you expect
d. you will find love again eventually :-)

Well, I'm having a crap two weeks. I lost my first childhood crush and my latest fictional crush. Feeling depressed is becoming an unnaturally natural feeling.

I feel widowed.

Absolutely widowed.

:(

i want my denial back

oh god - this is awful - right now I want nothing to do with TW or DW ... but I want to keep my fandom friends.

Do a HORRIBLE THING TO A LIKEABLE CHARACTER TO PROVE HOW MUCH EMO MANPAIN OUR PROTAGONIST IS IN and how much their life sucks, so we shall feel sorry for them and love them. I HATED him for doing it to Donna for no real reason and I HATE him even more now for doing it AGAIN. I have no words. And I'm STILL FUCKING CRYING, my kids think I'm broken.

exactly that

except for the kids part, b/c i don't have any

same here
i love you guys
also, i was here for the characters, and if they are only going to stay alive in fandom then i'm hiding out here
screw the damn show!

Yeah. Me, too. When I can stop tearing up every time I see an icon with Ianto on it.

Not quite sure whether they will or not. Like you say there was a Jackless vibe to the episodes. They've bumped off Ianto. Eve is doing some series or other (though that wouldn't necessarily stop her doing TW). RTD and whatserface are off to the US. Unless they are planning a US version I could imagine even with modern tech devoting time to running the show from there might be a hassle. But then again it had good ratings. I could see it finishing or not.

If they could write this well, why the hell couldn't they do it with the cast they had?

Looking back on the five eps, this has felt like nothing more than a five hour pilot for 'Gwen Cooper - Torchwood'.
Seriously, from her line to Rupesh in day one "I'm Torchwood", to her taking charge in the warehouse, organizing the thefts, convincing Lois to help them, manning the computer while watching Lois.
Being the big damn hero trying to save the kids on the council estate. It has all been about Gwen (no, i'm not bashing her, i'm reserving my bashing and my hate for the writers, TPTB, RTD, and whoever came up with the 'lets kill Ianto' idea)

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